http://www.bambootemple.com/
I am not promoting their video course -- but I found some of the picts on their discussion board to be extremely interesting.
particularly: http://www.bambootemple.com/dcforum/DCForumID21/7.html
and http://www.bambootemple.com/dcforum/DCForumID21/6.html
and http://www.bambootemple.com/dcforum/DCForumID21/4.html
Dana
[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited November 15, 2001).]
southern mantis site
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southern mantis site
Yes - I think we might be closer to our roots than we think.
Kanei showed the forward lean in much of the older footage -- people didn't start to be more upright until the modern sparring influence took hold....
Dana
Kanei showed the forward lean in much of the older footage -- people didn't start to be more upright until the modern sparring influence took hold....
Dana
southern mantis site
Wouldn't it be interesting to have Sifu Roger D. Hagood (the gentleman who runs the forum posted above) come to give a seminar at next summer's camp???!!!
Dana
[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited November 15, 2001).]
Dana
[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited November 15, 2001).]
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gmattson
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Great idea. I'll extend an invitation to him and will let you know what he says.
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GEM
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GEM
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Bill Glasheen
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southern mantis site
Dana
Interesting sites.
You might find it interesting talking to Bob Campbell about this. Bob will tell you that our origins may have more southern mantis influence than is expressed in the oral Okinawan history. He can tell you of his sources.
I have had students move and subsequently study various mantis systems. Some have shown me exercises that are so strikingly like what are done in older Uechiryu that one begins to wonder who is copying whom. In any case, once can certainly say that styles around the Fuzhou area practiced around the turn of the century (1900) tended to draw from a common body of knowledge, regardless of what animal/insect the movements were attributed to.
When I think of the basic sanchin posture, it has more resemblance (to me) to the mantis than to any other animal and/or insect considered when discussing this body of knowledge. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
One might say that - to their credit - masters in Uechi ryu have gotten more precise about what they do, and how they do things. In the past, folks practiced with a greater degree of ambivalence about the specifics of certain aspects of form. The change tends to happen when you have better communication and work more on a consensus during training and testing.
Furthermore...the Grand Poohbah in any style often doesn't get "corrected." His/her students sometimes are more precise because they get more attention to their detail from outside. As beautiful as Uechi Kanei's form is, he has some rather interesting...idiosyncrasies that many of his students don't copy.
- Bill
Interesting sites.
You might find it interesting talking to Bob Campbell about this. Bob will tell you that our origins may have more southern mantis influence than is expressed in the oral Okinawan history. He can tell you of his sources.
I have had students move and subsequently study various mantis systems. Some have shown me exercises that are so strikingly like what are done in older Uechiryu that one begins to wonder who is copying whom. In any case, once can certainly say that styles around the Fuzhou area practiced around the turn of the century (1900) tended to draw from a common body of knowledge, regardless of what animal/insect the movements were attributed to.
When I think of the basic sanchin posture, it has more resemblance (to me) to the mantis than to any other animal and/or insect considered when discussing this body of knowledge. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
These days, Dana, I don't give such ideas much in the way of interpretation. When you consider the variability just within upper dans in IUKF, then it's hard to say that a style does things this way or that. Even individuals change the way they do things over time. Every "line" tends to have its characteristics that aren't common to other "lines."Kanei showed the forward lean in much of the older footage -- people didn't start to be more upright until the modern sparring influence took hold....
One might say that - to their credit - masters in Uechi ryu have gotten more precise about what they do, and how they do things. In the past, folks practiced with a greater degree of ambivalence about the specifics of certain aspects of form. The change tends to happen when you have better communication and work more on a consensus during training and testing.
Furthermore...the Grand Poohbah in any style often doesn't get "corrected." His/her students sometimes are more precise because they get more attention to their detail from outside. As beautiful as Uechi Kanei's form is, he has some rather interesting...idiosyncrasies that many of his students don't copy.
- Bill
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gmattson
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Guess I'll have to change the name of the style I teach. . . Been doing all these moves as part of Uechi-ryu for over 40 years!
Interesting site. . . Thanks for sharing it with us.
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GEM
Interesting site. . . Thanks for sharing it with us.
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GEM
southern mantis site
Bill -- I agree with you on several points - but I will remain open on the leaning.
Some of the mantis branches have a definitve forward learn -- some Uechi folks do as well , but not so pronounced.
The current variation in sanchin stance in Uechi-ka is attributable to many many influences -- each will have their own reason for doing it that way. But at least one entire mantis family branch leans forward in a very pronounced way.
It seems counterintuitive to what I've heard about letting your hips lead your movement and keep your nose back from your opponent. It is highly likely that the current iteration of the more upright stance comes from a greater understanding of what will ultimately work more often -- but the mantis folks had to have a reason for that lean, and I'll enjoy finding out that reason.
Dana
[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited November 16, 2001).]
Some of the mantis branches have a definitve forward learn -- some Uechi folks do as well , but not so pronounced.
The current variation in sanchin stance in Uechi-ka is attributable to many many influences -- each will have their own reason for doing it that way. But at least one entire mantis family branch leans forward in a very pronounced way.
It seems counterintuitive to what I've heard about letting your hips lead your movement and keep your nose back from your opponent. It is highly likely that the current iteration of the more upright stance comes from a greater understanding of what will ultimately work more often -- but the mantis folks had to have a reason for that lean, and I'll enjoy finding out that reason.
Dana
[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited November 16, 2001).]
southern mantis site
If you can't get him, try Sifu Richard Gamboa in Illinois. I have contact information for him.
He is a remarkable martial artist (and I admit that I have seen more than a few in my time) and a very fine teacher as well - not to mention being a really nice guy.
Respectfully,
Lee DArrow, C.Ht. (Sandan, ret. sort of)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dmsdc:
Wouldn't it be interesting to have Sifu Roger D. Hagood (the gentleman who runs the forum posted above) come to give a seminar at next summer's camp???!!!
Dana
[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited November 15, 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
He is a remarkable martial artist (and I admit that I have seen more than a few in my time) and a very fine teacher as well - not to mention being a really nice guy.
Respectfully,
Lee DArrow, C.Ht. (Sandan, ret. sort of)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dmsdc:
Wouldn't it be interesting to have Sifu Roger D. Hagood (the gentleman who runs the forum posted above) come to give a seminar at next summer's camp???!!!
Dana
[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited November 15, 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
southern mantis site
Dana
In 1976, Larry Tan wrote an article that was published in Inside Kung Fu: Uechi Ryu - an Okinawan cousin of kung fu. In it he remarked about a "hollow chest" manifestation of the sanchin stance that he saw in some Uechi practitioners that was also prevalent in some southern Chinese styles. Based on his descriptions, us medical people would call that thoracic kyphosis. Rather than a leaning, it is instead a hunching over of the upper part of the thorax.
Why would folks do that? My guess is that some people may have found it easier to have the proper arm position by hunching over like that. Many people have very tight posterior deltoids, and can't get that elbow-in, wrist-out position without hunching over and bringing the shoulders forward.
Anyhow, is this what you are talking about?
- Bill
In 1976, Larry Tan wrote an article that was published in Inside Kung Fu: Uechi Ryu - an Okinawan cousin of kung fu. In it he remarked about a "hollow chest" manifestation of the sanchin stance that he saw in some Uechi practitioners that was also prevalent in some southern Chinese styles. Based on his descriptions, us medical people would call that thoracic kyphosis. Rather than a leaning, it is instead a hunching over of the upper part of the thorax.
Why would folks do that? My guess is that some people may have found it easier to have the proper arm position by hunching over like that. Many people have very tight posterior deltoids, and can't get that elbow-in, wrist-out position without hunching over and bringing the shoulders forward.
Anyhow, is this what you are talking about?
- Bill
southern mantis site
Bill - that is it in part.
However, I notice in my own body that when I elongate my stance a little and shift my weight forward, I am better able to close the inguinal crease.
Better meaning more quickly and in a more relaxed way. This is a very nice way to shift where your center body out of the direct line of attack.
My understanding is that the opening and closing of this crease is very important in CMA (chinese martial arts) in shifting weight between legs and thus moving the center.
Dana
However, I notice in my own body that when I elongate my stance a little and shift my weight forward, I am better able to close the inguinal crease.
Better meaning more quickly and in a more relaxed way. This is a very nice way to shift where your center body out of the direct line of attack.
My understanding is that the opening and closing of this crease is very important in CMA (chinese martial arts) in shifting weight between legs and thus moving the center.
Dana
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Stryke
Back from the dead !!!
I`m not sold on the lean either way , I think it does have merit and a reason . And deffinately not a case of doing it wrong ... just different .
committed forward action , more forward spring energy as Jim would call it
I know Laird has had a forward lean in the way he does Uechi and it`s incredibly effective .
Interesting stuff to ponder .
I`m not sold on the lean either way , I think it does have merit and a reason . And deffinately not a case of doing it wrong ... just different .
committed forward action , more forward spring energy as Jim would call it
I know Laird has had a forward lean in the way he does Uechi and it`s incredibly effective .
Interesting stuff to ponder .
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
