Could Grappling/Wrestling be the best?

dtk81 · Post by **dtk81** » Sun Nov 18, 2001 3:25 am

hey guy im sure you guy are aware of how grappling has been a popular thing going on. In a matter of fact schools of mixed martial arts has been a growing around my area.
Some ppl say that grappling is the most effective thing to do in a fighting.. providing its one on one. I guess it all depends on the fighter, but how would a traditional eastern martial arts like kung fu, karate fair with a mixed martial artist that trains in grappling/wrestling do. how ever Ju Jitsu has been doing ok in the UFC
In a ring or enclosed area certianly the grappler would have a huge advantage. so lets take that out.
i for one am not really fond of grappling. i guess im bias because of my traditional ways. but I must admit watching Prime in japan and UFC grappling works very well. imagin if your fighting someone like ken shamrock or tito ortiz and grabing a hold of you.
i guess this issue could go many ways.. lol

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Sun Nov 18, 2001 3:37 pm

Ah, the "whose martial art is bigger" debate. :0)

If your objective is to win a one on one fight in a ring, there's probably little doubt that grappling gets you more consistent results faster. It's just not that hard to shrug off or absorb a few blows and then leech onto the striker in a way that makes it hard for them to hit at all. Then they're playing the grappler's game, and the conclusion is mostly written.

BUT I have no interest in squaring off against Shamrock in a ring. If he comes looking for me on the street, I'll probably outrun him, and if he sneaks into my apartment I've got a homemade bokken and a nice set of knives, which definitely changes things. If I were really just out to defend myself, I'd be armed, not making like some tough guy on the street trying to learn the hard way that most BG's have friends, often staning behind you with a big stick or worse.

Most to all of us would still do uechi if we had a personal guarantee from God we'd never get assaulted. Street fights are NOT why we do the seisan jump.

The best answer to the question, "whose MA is bigger?" is, I dunno, but I'm happy with the way mine is working, thanks.

[This message has been edited by Ian (edited November 18, 2001).]

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Sun Nov 18, 2001 6:44 pm

Who's martial art is biggest? Easy, sumo.
Konishiki, of Hawaii, weighed in at 589 pounds at Tokyos Ryogoku Kokugikan arena on january 3, 1994. Or maybe Chad Rowan, alias Akebono 6 foot eight inches tall, and weighs 507 pounds. Put them in the UFC and watch them run.
f.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » Sun Nov 18, 2001 11:13 pm

Whose MA is the best?

Well I'm strongly in favor of the NFL.

They break arms, legs, dislocate shoulders, etc. weekly, and are paid millions to do so.

And that's while they're wearing armour, too.

It's all a matter of perspective.

And I for one don't really want to face Andre Tippett, either.

Victor Smith

Ted Dinwiddie · Post by **Ted Dinwiddie** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 2:21 am

One on one in a controlled environment with rules against really nasty stuff and the grappler has a distinct advantage, in my view. Open the game up and things are not so obvious. I am in agreement with Ian's perspective.

Now, according to stuff that I have read, grappling was part of Okinawan fighting all along. It was simply called te (ti in Hogen). Karate (Tode) was Te influenced by the Chinese. Te recieved less notoriety in comparison to Karate because it was not new and strange. My point is that grappling is intrinsic to traditional Okinawan arts. It is not a departure at all or a mixture of any kind to pursue grappling skills as part of traditional Okinawan training. It is also not a "violation" to be adept at the use of any possible weapon at hand. The pidgeon-holing of arts is a modern marketing perpetuated ignorance.

------------------
ted

"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 12:32 pm

Victor,
I trained in the same Dojo as Andre Tippett back while he was playing. He was as fast as guys half his size. I think footballs martial aspects are overlooked as they are more of the group variety, such as controlling a patrol of troops. However to my knowledge soccer, rugby and football were born from war. Soccer from kicking the skulls of victims around the field after battle.
f.

T Rose · Post by **T Rose** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 2:58 pm

Have to go with Victor on this one, the NFL!!

Seriously, the big advantage that JJ, boxing, wrestling has over karate is training. There is no place to hide in a boxing ring.. Those that stay get tough period. We in karate have to many rituals, ranks and foo foo dust to hide behind. Train in Karate like they do in BJJ, boxing or wrestling and watch the change... of course your school will be 1/3 it's size in a month..

BTW there are no styles, just training methology based on assumptions and when it gets down to it it's 95% attitude, 3% skill and 2% luck...

later

crazycat · Post by **crazycat** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 4:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dtk81:
I guess it all depends on the fighter, but how would a traditional eastern martial arts like kung fu, karate fair with a mixed martial artist that trains in grappling/wrestling do. lol <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The smarter of the two...
CC

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 8:16 pm

I am in agreement that folks want to inappropriately pigeon-hole certain arts. Judo actually has kata, and some basic strikes. However these are rarely executed on the mat where points count. Many karate kata have grappling moves. However they are rarely practiced in the traditional karate dojo with a wooden floor (for obvious reasons).

The bottom line is that many arts look the same in a given situation. I doubt that a grappler is going to the ground in a parking lot against 3 people. I doubt that a striker would ignore a grappling maneuver when confronted with an opponent after both had fallen to the ground (s*** happens...). In general, people tend to favor certain moves and ways of doing things, but the better fighters of any style are pretty well rounded.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 8:43 pm

One more observation...

Remember that the "average" or "median" practitioner of any art isn't going to look or perform like the guy you see competing in world class competition. I don't lay awake at night worrying about a Ken Shamrock facing me when I walk out my front door.

And of course if he did, I certainly wouldn't fight on his terms...

- Bill

TSDguy · Post by **TSDguy** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 9:07 pm

Shamrockophobia: The irrational fear Ken Shamrock is waiting outside your door in the morning.

Colin 8 of 8 · Post by **Colin 8 of 8** » Mon Nov 19, 2001 11:54 pm

I mostly agree with Bill.

But grappling is not just going to the ground. Wristlocks can be useful to control one fighter while kicking another on the nose. Grab the big guy in a choke hold and use him as a shield. Guide fighters into walls etc.

As for shamrock just call his agent.

Colin 8 of 8

------------------
My name is Colin 8 of 8, I am very much alive, and intend to stay that way.

[This message has been edited by Colin 8 of 8 (edited November 19, 2001).]

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Tue Nov 20, 2001 2:47 am

If you watch Ultimate fighting now it seems that striking is king again. I haven't seen Shamrock fight but the UFC I see now is a lot different from watching Gracie in the early 90's. Now they seem to take down and work through the guard, and strike with punches and slamming them with their shoulder.
I wonder how much of that is to please the audience.
Notice real wrestling or Judo coverage is non existent on television. Got to get those ratings.
f.

RA Miller · Post by **RA Miller** » Tue Nov 20, 2001 8:21 am

dtk81-

I'm going to hit this from another direction. I'm an infighter and grappler, but I'll throw this out- a striking victory is superior.

Even more- The greater the distance between the stopped threat and your own precious internal organs, the better. An artillery victory is better than a rifle is better than a handgun is better than a sword is better than a knife is better than a kick is better than a punch is better than an elbow is better than grappling.

However, life doesn't always seem to leave me the right opportunity at the right distance... so I work very hard at being very good at bad situations.

Rory
PS- everyone gets that this isn't an endorsement of striking over grappling, right? That would sound pretty odd coming from me....

Ted Dinwiddie · Post by **Ted Dinwiddie** » Tue Nov 20, 2001 2:00 pm

I have seen an evolution in the UFC/NHB contests. First, the Gracies showed us how vulnerable everyone was to grappling and that if you can't grapple you will probably lose. Then the big monsters began to dominate. They all know how to grapple now and how to guard themselves from the takedowns. Striking skills become necessary. Fighting on their feet with the awareness and skill to go to the ground or not; complete fighters.

This was part of my point earlier about traditional Okinawan arts. They knew how to grapple. The Chinese striking techniques and training techniques were incorporated with a grappling base of knowledge.

If both fighters can grapple, but only one can strike, then the striker has an advantage.

------------------
ted

"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke

[This message has been edited by Ted Dinwiddie (edited November 20, 2001).]