The groin strikes in seisan/seichin kata have baffled me for sometime.
I can not get any power in the rear strike.
I have always felt that it's not really a groin strike.
The attacker to the rear would have to be seven foot to get struck in the groin.
I see the strike landing in the lower abdominal area.
When I was at physiotherapy the other day I had the old shoulder joints tested. During the testing process I was required to place my hand down by the tail bone and push straight back against resistance. Same motion as the groin strike.
So I was surprised to find that I could not generate strength with this motion.Mostly related to my shoulder problem, shoulders failed big time......but got me thinking. How do you develop power in this strike to the rear?
Laird
groin strikes
Moderator: Available
groin strikes
Uglyelk,
Power = speed x strength. So you will need to basically develop these two elements. Speed can be developed by doing fast twich exercises such as explosive kinds of movements. However, I don't recommend this in your case because of a pre-exsisting injury that sounds like you haven't completely rehabed yet. So in place of the explosive exercises try warming up real good first and then executing whipping like motions with a soft to hard emphasis, like cracking a whip. Imitate the motion you are trying to develop when doing this. Execute this whip under control, that is, don't let the momentum or weight of the arm exceed your shoulders range of motion, reinjuring the joint. For the strength part, try grabbing a dumbell and assume the tricep kick-back position over a flat bench. So that the hand and and same side knee are on the bench in a half doggie stance while the other foot is flat on the ground.
http://www.meijer.com/pharmacy/arms.html
(The second one down, it will look just like this but your arm will be hanging straight down parallel to the other arm for the starting position. You will also keep your arm straightwhile executing the motion.)
The free arm is holding the weight, hanging towards the ground. Now, slowly pull the weight up and to the rear of you, keeping the arm straight, in an arcing motion as it swings past your leg\hip area. Try this with a pronated, supinated, and neutral grip. Start with low weight\high reps eventually progressing to a higher weight\ lower rep scheme. This gives you an idea on the basic movement. You can rig up a pully and cable system as well but you get the idea. Hope this helps, I know how shoulder problems can be as I have suffered from them as well.
[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited March 22, 2002).]
Power = speed x strength. So you will need to basically develop these two elements. Speed can be developed by doing fast twich exercises such as explosive kinds of movements. However, I don't recommend this in your case because of a pre-exsisting injury that sounds like you haven't completely rehabed yet. So in place of the explosive exercises try warming up real good first and then executing whipping like motions with a soft to hard emphasis, like cracking a whip. Imitate the motion you are trying to develop when doing this. Execute this whip under control, that is, don't let the momentum or weight of the arm exceed your shoulders range of motion, reinjuring the joint. For the strength part, try grabbing a dumbell and assume the tricep kick-back position over a flat bench. So that the hand and and same side knee are on the bench in a half doggie stance while the other foot is flat on the ground.
http://www.meijer.com/pharmacy/arms.html
(The second one down, it will look just like this but your arm will be hanging straight down parallel to the other arm for the starting position. You will also keep your arm straightwhile executing the motion.)
The free arm is holding the weight, hanging towards the ground. Now, slowly pull the weight up and to the rear of you, keeping the arm straight, in an arcing motion as it swings past your leg\hip area. Try this with a pronated, supinated, and neutral grip. Start with low weight\high reps eventually progressing to a higher weight\ lower rep scheme. This gives you an idea on the basic movement. You can rig up a pully and cable system as well but you get the idea. Hope this helps, I know how shoulder problems can be as I have suffered from them as well.
[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited March 22, 2002).]
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Tony-San
groin strikes
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I feel the same way.I have always felt that it's not really a groin strike.
groin strikes
There is a way to increase power in the strike if you propel the hand by a sharp torque of the hip and finish with a compression tuck.
Your shoulders and hips should resemble the motion of a dog "shaking water" from his fur.
We do this in the TC concept, and Takara sensei teaches the same technique of rotation, which also helps in shaking your opponent off your shoulders.
It is a viable defensive move if combined with a forward shoulder roll instead of the "stiff in the box" position some take in Sanchin.
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Van Canna
Your shoulders and hips should resemble the motion of a dog "shaking water" from his fur.
We do this in the TC concept, and Takara sensei teaches the same technique of rotation, which also helps in shaking your opponent off your shoulders.
It is a viable defensive move if combined with a forward shoulder roll instead of the "stiff in the box" position some take in Sanchin.
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Van Canna
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
groin strikes
Laird
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I can not get any power in the rear strike.
I have always felt that it's not really a groin strike.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thinking out of the box is not a bad thing.
First of all, it can be a groin strike, if done properly. See above.
However...
I learned most of my aikido from a fellow that was a judoka, karateka, aikidoka, and a former Green Beret. He had been in actual hand-to-hand combat and knew his stuff. We used to have these pretty intense workouts where a few injuries here and there weren't uncommon. I know I got a shoulder separation one time (fell wrong on a concrete floor), and accidentally inflicted one broken arm (opponent trying to block my kick) and one torn meniscus (partner's foot got stuck when I was throwing him). Needless to say, we were playing pretty rough.
We used to have these 3-on-1 and 4-on-1 randori sessions that pretty much humiliated us until we started getting the hang of it. Our teacher was trying to help teach us to rely on throwing. The game was the opponents could keep attacking until thrown. Often you'd get into this situation where you'd have 3 people simultaneously grabbing you and pounding you senseless. It seemed like a no-way-out scenario. On occasion, our instructor would "tap in" and show us it wasn't impossible. Now he had all kinds of things he would do but... One thing he would do with three people holding on is he would just reach down and grab somebody's balls. I can tell you (having had it done to me) that the reaction is predictable. More often than not the person would release the grip. Now with one or two others grabbing on, the next motion can be a twist and a wauke, and you are suddenly free. He made it look way too easy but...the point is made.
It isn't necessarily about striking. I can only think of one situation where I like someone putting their hands down there, and 3 guys in an alley isn't it, thank you.
No power, no strike. Just...grab. Never mind the fact that while you have the package in your hand, you could - in the words of Led Zeppelin - squeeze the lemon until the juice runs down his leg. We are working on grip all the way back in sanchin kata, right?
- Bill
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I can not get any power in the rear strike.
I have always felt that it's not really a groin strike.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thinking out of the box is not a bad thing.
First of all, it can be a groin strike, if done properly. See above.
However...
I learned most of my aikido from a fellow that was a judoka, karateka, aikidoka, and a former Green Beret. He had been in actual hand-to-hand combat and knew his stuff. We used to have these pretty intense workouts where a few injuries here and there weren't uncommon. I know I got a shoulder separation one time (fell wrong on a concrete floor), and accidentally inflicted one broken arm (opponent trying to block my kick) and one torn meniscus (partner's foot got stuck when I was throwing him). Needless to say, we were playing pretty rough.
We used to have these 3-on-1 and 4-on-1 randori sessions that pretty much humiliated us until we started getting the hang of it. Our teacher was trying to help teach us to rely on throwing. The game was the opponents could keep attacking until thrown. Often you'd get into this situation where you'd have 3 people simultaneously grabbing you and pounding you senseless. It seemed like a no-way-out scenario. On occasion, our instructor would "tap in" and show us it wasn't impossible. Now he had all kinds of things he would do but... One thing he would do with three people holding on is he would just reach down and grab somebody's balls. I can tell you (having had it done to me) that the reaction is predictable. More often than not the person would release the grip. Now with one or two others grabbing on, the next motion can be a twist and a wauke, and you are suddenly free. He made it look way too easy but...the point is made.
It isn't necessarily about striking. I can only think of one situation where I like someone putting their hands down there, and 3 guys in an alley isn't it, thank you.
No power, no strike. Just...grab. Never mind the fact that while you have the package in your hand, you could - in the words of Led Zeppelin - squeeze the lemon until the juice runs down his leg. We are working on grip all the way back in sanchin kata, right?- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
groin strikes
Agreed.
Same could be said for the Uechi cross block. One really needs to propel it with a rotation around the body center (and have arms move much less) rather than stand stiff and do it with the arms.
It works just fine as a groin strike, and works pretty well at the rear. In the Seisan bunkai technique, I don't ever have a problem getting the hand to where it's supposed to be.
Uechij makes a good point about your injury, Laird. There are ways to work on your range of motion that will help with the "internal resistance" that may be killing your power. Here's a stretch that can help. Find a bar or a doorknob or a desk surface that you can put your hands on (together) behind your back. Next drop your body (bend your knees) until your arms can't go up behind your back any more. Once in that position, convert to a PNF stretch (contract the stretched muscles isometrically for around 7 seconds, then relax and hold).
There's a technique element to doing this that most people miss. In order to finish symmetrically, you have to start symmetric. A lot of people start this technique (chamber, so to write) by having one arm way up and forward, and the other arm only slightly back). Make sure the front arm starts with your elbow roughly in sanchin position wrt your body (body can be twisted a bit in the "chamber") and your rear arm at the same angle wrt your back. You will then finish as you should, with both arms at groin level - and no higher.
Remember, this is an up-close-and-personal technique. The person has to be touching or nearly touching you with their body to make it work. If the attacking arm doesn't travel far from your body, the final position will be low enough to do damage to the opponent's family jewels.
- Bill
Same could be said for the Uechi cross block. One really needs to propel it with a rotation around the body center (and have arms move much less) rather than stand stiff and do it with the arms.
It works just fine as a groin strike, and works pretty well at the rear. In the Seisan bunkai technique, I don't ever have a problem getting the hand to where it's supposed to be.
Uechij makes a good point about your injury, Laird. There are ways to work on your range of motion that will help with the "internal resistance" that may be killing your power. Here's a stretch that can help. Find a bar or a doorknob or a desk surface that you can put your hands on (together) behind your back. Next drop your body (bend your knees) until your arms can't go up behind your back any more. Once in that position, convert to a PNF stretch (contract the stretched muscles isometrically for around 7 seconds, then relax and hold).
There's a technique element to doing this that most people miss. In order to finish symmetrically, you have to start symmetric. A lot of people start this technique (chamber, so to write) by having one arm way up and forward, and the other arm only slightly back). Make sure the front arm starts with your elbow roughly in sanchin position wrt your body (body can be twisted a bit in the "chamber") and your rear arm at the same angle wrt your back. You will then finish as you should, with both arms at groin level - and no higher.
Remember, this is an up-close-and-personal technique. The person has to be touching or nearly touching you with their body to make it work. If the attacking arm doesn't travel far from your body, the final position will be low enough to do damage to the opponent's family jewels.
- Bill
groin strikes
I have actually used the Crane Strike in Seisan to the rear in a real life encounter. I can honestly tell you that it does not take as much force as you would think. The key is to practice it with very rigid fingers supported by the thumb. I take my thumb and place it almost overtop of my index finger and pull back towards my wrist. I am a tall person (6'4"), so as always, if your weight is centered and your knees are slightly bent it will work well. Remember, this is a close range technique so you need to be within a couple of inches of the attacker.
When I used it, the attacker was actually leaning against my back. I simply squated slightly and let it fly. It was very subtle, and given that it was in a crowded area, no one even saw what happened at I was able to leave immediately with out any difficulty.
Good Luck!!
When I used it, the attacker was actually leaning against my back. I simply squated slightly and let it fly. It was very subtle, and given that it was in a crowded area, no one even saw what happened at I was able to leave immediately with out any difficulty.
Good Luck!!
groin strikes
Groin is between the legs, and with a straight rearkick, your target should be the bladder. To hit the groin, you have to go in a upward angle. A upward rear kick flip is the only way to strike the groin with a rear kick. The reverse sword hand is another way. Also you can use a front snap kick striking upward with the instep.
(Aikikenjitsu)
(Aikikenjitsu)
groin strikes
One way to tell how you feel about a technique is to let people do it to you. I'd have students punching feebly and I'd just stand in their way and they wouldn't hurt.
Don't think I'd let any of them hit me in the groin, although I would let them fingertip strike me in the stomach.
Don't think I'd let any of them hit me in the groin, although I would let them fingertip strike me in the stomach.
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Guest
groin strikes
Don't think I'd let any of them hit me in the groin, although I would let them fingertip strike me in the stomach.
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I don't think I'd let any of them apply Bills Led Zeppelin interpretation on me either.
Btw Sensei Maloney saw it similar too Bill except he suggested you hang on as you chambered for the next strike. (Like offering a handful of lemons to your next assailant)
Some times it just don't pay to get behind folks. The produce isle makes me smile these days.
Van Sensei, Your tips on rotational power and compression have added much to this movement thank you sir.
Laird
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I don't think I'd let any of them apply Bills Led Zeppelin interpretation on me either.
Btw Sensei Maloney saw it similar too Bill except he suggested you hang on as you chambered for the next strike. (Like offering a handful of lemons to your next assailant)
Some times it just don't pay to get behind folks. The produce isle makes me smile these days.
Van Sensei, Your tips on rotational power and compression have added much to this movement thank you sir.
Laird
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Evan Pantazi
- Posts: 1897
- Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
- Contact:
groin strikes
If you consider that this move could be something else as well, like catching a kick and pulling it past you to strike with the opposite hand, it would also require less stength as the momentum of the kick is with you.
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Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com
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Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com
groin strikes
I agree with Van on the body mechanics. No matter what, we need to hit as effectively as we can. Yes it may not take much force. Yes it is crutial to keep the fingers rigid with help of the thumb. I say if you are loading the cannon use your best projectile for the job and as much powder as you can!
As a target I would like to suggest the crease of the leg at the abdomen. Try to tense it up on yourself. You really can't so it works against stronger people....Feel about and find where you would least like to be hit with the but of a fat pencil, feel where it is most sensitive. See how the arm and hand line the fingers up to it in Seisan. There is an almost natural swing to the best target. That is my target. If I miss, I hope to cause a rupture of the lower abdomen with the power. If not, perhaps my attacker will fall down.
As a target I would like to suggest the crease of the leg at the abdomen. Try to tense it up on yourself. You really can't so it works against stronger people....Feel about and find where you would least like to be hit with the but of a fat pencil, feel where it is most sensitive. See how the arm and hand line the fingers up to it in Seisan. There is an almost natural swing to the best target. That is my target. If I miss, I hope to cause a rupture of the lower abdomen with the power. If not, perhaps my attacker will fall down.
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Tony-San
groin strikes
Every play "Mercy"? It's a game where you interlock fingers with a partner and you each struggle to bend the others wrist back (either one or both) until the other guy begs for mercy. Try your "Groin Strikes" while playing this. Don't forget the wauke.... that can be an added bonus!
groin strikes
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Don't forget the wauke.... that can be
an added bonus!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Right on!
Been playing using the downward part of the'basic" wauke to encounter the groin, works very well in Seichen elbow strike palm heel sequence (After the elbow strike use the downward motion of the right arm to grab the groin and complete the wauke as you come back to Sanchin position pulling with your center) seems tailor made for me anyway
an added bonus!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Right on!
Been playing using the downward part of the'basic" wauke to encounter the groin, works very well in Seichen elbow strike palm heel sequence (After the elbow strike use the downward motion of the right arm to grab the groin and complete the wauke as you come back to Sanchin position pulling with your center) seems tailor made for me anyway
