Triple Compression?

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Bill Glasheen
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Triple Compression?

Post by Bill Glasheen »

David

Well I promised Dana I'd start a thread on this, so here we go.

Actually the concept is exercised in the classic Olympic-style power clean.

Power Clean

The explosiveness is developed two different ways:

1) First is the exploding extension of the three joints (hips, knees, and ankles) in the initial phase. The goal here is to get the fast twitch muscles heaving the weight straight up, as high as they can heave it up. The hands and arms are merely transferring the energy of the extension of those three joints to the weight. (First five frames of the exercise on the web page).

2) Once the weight has pretty much defined its final height (frames 1-5) and the person guides it as close to the shoulders as possible with comparatively less upper body strength (frames 6-7), the individual then throws his body under the weight (frames 8-9). That second phase (barely seen on this WebPages because the person really isn't challenging himself) compresses these same three joints, which triggers a massive stretch reflex. Thus the exercise transitions from fast twitch muscular to neuromuscular.

So...how does this relate to a karate thrust? Well many serious actions in karate involve an action down to the floor from the center (from just above the hips down), and a reaction toward the target (from the hips up).

One way to do it is to extend all joints at once, as in the beginning of this power exercise. A tournament fighter that must rely strictly on speed will often do this for a "point." If one only emphasized the first phase, that's all one could do.

Another way to do it is to take advantage of the neuromuscular reflexes seen developed in the second phase of this Power Clean exercise. When a basketball player jumps up for a rebound, what is the first action? DOWN! Why? Of course he needs to lengthen muscles a bit (squat) to get to the peak strength zone for a good jump. But the compression phase done in just the right timing will trigger a stretch reflex. Thus there is a neuromuscular response that will aid in the leap to the rim.

When you think about it, there are electrical things going on in the body here. No wonder the chi-sters talk about strange energy flowing through the body!

Now, what was Dana doing? Well actually Dana had a fourth "joint" involved in her compression. She was allowing her pelvis to pop out of sanchin, and then was popping it right back under at just the right time. In fact folks like Dana use a whip-like wave action rather than a synchronous joint movement when attempting to elicit a compression and subsequent neuromuscular response. Dana talked about how master Nakamatsu first got them "thinking" about it. They would go way back down on the back leg until the joints were screaming. They would also extend the abdominal muscles by sticking the butt out, or as Dana said "forming a crease at the back femoral area." Then she would extend with the lower parts of the body (the first three joints), and then snap the pelvis under when the energy wave passed through the abdominal region.

Methinks that in practice it is quite sophisticated. Dana talked about it taking several years to get her own "jing". I don't believe it is simultaneous compression at all, but rather a wave going down and up through the body. A good baseball pitcher understand that well. In watching a pitcher wind up and fire, you can see the joints apply their forces from bottom to top at the last part of the motion. Each joint is further compressed when the energy wave goes by it, and then adds its response in just the right timing. Screw up the intra-body timing and you don't get that magnification action up the body from joint to joint.

The same is true for a sanchin thrust with jing (methinks...), but the final product must make this "wave" happen in smaller and smaller waves. The joints actually move less and less as you understand it is just as much timing as it is grunting. In a way, it's like how someone doing a hoola hoop will move the body less and less as they get the hoop going faster and faster.

I can get that nice whip action in some techniques. But the sanchin thrust presents quite a challenge, because the form and the system demand everything be done small and subtle. Dana makes it look easy. It most definitely is not.

I hope I got the conversation started right, and didn't mis-speak any of what Dana is doing. I'm eager to have her step in and either clean up my mess ( Image ) or confirm and add to my understanding.

- Bill


[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited August 14, 2002).]
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Bill Glasheen
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Triple Compression?

Post by Bill Glasheen »

By the way, I want to emphasize that some of the extra "action" that Dana is doing (that pelvic whip) is somewhat a matter of choice. Frankly most martial artists don't do this. A lot of people that are pretty strong really don't need it. But if you make the decision to play with that pelvic whip, it can have some pretty interesting results when/if successful.

In the case of your student, David, I think the point I was trying to make is that (like a good kyu practitioner) he was getting most of his pop from the upper body while holding the lower body firm. That's a great start; beginners have to start somewhere. But loosening up a bit and attempting to get the lower body to do most of the work is the next phase. The good martial artist elicits both up/down compressive and rotational compressive forces in the lower body to get a good upper body thrust. In the end, good fighters pretty much relax the upper body and let those three lower joints (or 4 in Dana's case) do most of the work. That being the case, the more you relax the upper body rather than thinking of benchpressing the thrust, the better the pop in the hit.

- Bill
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Triple Compression?

Post by Dana Sheets »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Screw up the intra-body timing and you don't get that magnification action up the body from joint to joint.
Bill, your description is very accurate. One thing - when I loosen the hip joints - it is not with the goal of sticking my butt out. I do come out of sanchin - especially when I do the exaggerated training or when I'm trying to show folks what I'm doing - but only enough to close the "qua" which is a term I understand to mean what you're calling the femoral crease.

It is important to know that we worked with very big movements for a very long time and continue to do so. It is only now (after 3 years) that I'm starting to make the outward movements smaller while training to maintain the power. Right now if I try to make the movements really small (i.e. traditional sanchin looking), I have a good strike but I give myself a headache on my forehead right between the eyes. Which tells me that something's holding up the force from going out into the strike -- unless it's because I'm not hitting something substantial.

Anyway. When I sit down on my rear leg, I'm actually trying to keep my butt tucked as much as possible and not bend forward at the same time. To do that you must close the qua.

Dana

[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited August 14, 2002).]
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David Kahn
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Triple Compression?

Post by David Kahn »

Bill:

Thanks for the quick reply. I am eagerly anticipating the continued discussion on this thread. Since first learning some basic TC principles from Van Canna at Winterfest 2000, I have felt my katas & my applications become more powerful. Further discussions with Vinny last year and this year have added new aspects that I am working on incorporating.

Last night in class, we were all discussing these concepts with each person trying to "feel out" which ideas would benefit themselves most. My Sandan student, Big Pete (I'm sure you met him at Camp), seems to be having trouble with his stance during the drawing back phase of his strikes while using these new methods. While the rest of us see nothing wrong with his stance during that phase, he says he feels it is wrong to transfer weight to his back leg, thereby giving up the 50/50 weight distribution we had hammered into us as beginners.

I don't think I'm experienced enough to explain to him why this transfering of weight is not only ok, but necessary to create that traveling wave you mentioned, and hence, explosive power.

Any thoughts on how to explain this?

David

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Triple Compression?

Post by Bill Glasheen »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
he says he feels it is wrong to transfer weight to his back leg, thereby giving up the 50/50 weight distribution we had hammered into us as beginners
Please note my emphasis.

Your junior student was brilliant for his level of development (and please tell him I said so). He will do great things. But our martial arts evolves with time. Soon he will be getting power from a very different area of the body.

On this 50/50 weight distribution thing, that is all about static sanchin. But we do not stand still like a statue. Once things start moving, all this weight distribution thing becomes MUCH more complex.

I like to tell my students that if you made a cast of master Uechi in "the perfect sanchin", made a bronze statue from the cast, and set it on the gym floor, that a child could knock the statue over. Huh??? That's right. Then I go up to a student and gently push on their stance in various directions. I push from the front, and have them note that the force to the floor increases on the rear leg - OR THEY FALL OVER. From the rear, they must compensate with the front foot. From the left side, they most compensate with the right leg. Etc, etc. "Sanchin dachi" is a dynamic concept. Once you start moving - whether it is to thrust or to step or to turn or to intercept, you are STILL in sanchin. But there is all kinds of weight shifting going on. Trust me on that one; the engineer in me understand it, and I could demonstrate it to your sandan if I could gently "test" his stance.

The big problem many have with "sanchin" is that they are stuck with this static idea about what it is. Then you get someone like Gary Khory or Ron Fagen or Carlos show you how to move in fighting. Did sanchin go out the window? Absolutely not - if you understand what dynamic sanchin is all about. When you move - frame by frame on the video screen - each and every point must still be about the application of the underlying principles of sanchin. Rather than abandoning the principles when one fights or moves in a kata, one must expand the understanding.

Hope that helps. And BTW, I can just see George smiling. Image

- Bill
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David Kahn
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Triple Compression?

Post by David Kahn »

Bill:

On Saturday morning after watching my student, BJ, perform his Seisan Kata, you spent some time with Vinny and me discussing the concepts of body rotation and compression in executing techniques. We also were fortunate enough to see Dana demonstrate these concepts in her Sanchin Kata.

At the time, I think you mentioned the term, "triple compression". You also mentioned that it had been discussed on another forum or website.

First, do I have the correct term, as you stated it?

Also, can you direct me to the site you mentioned where that concept was discussed?

Thanks for your help.

David Kahn

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Triple Compression?

Post by Dana Sheets »

Also - the rest of the body must maintain the sanchin connectedness in order to transfer the power created by the legs. If alignment is off - say your shoulders are up or you're leaning forward too far or back too far then the power won't transfer. This is going to be a very individual thing - since all of our levers and joints are in different places.
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Triple Compression?

Post by Bill Glasheen »

One of the ways to think about the 50/50 proposition or the shoulder width stance proposition is that it is a "median position." When we take a sliding step forward in sanchin, for a bit we no longer have our weight 50/50 on the feet. In fact, we often have all the weight on one foot. But our "reference point" is something we always spring right back to. As soon as the front foot is planted, our back foot springs back to the "reference point" (while all the weight is on the front foot) so that we finish with feet shoulder width apart (more or less) and weight 50/50. Did we move out of sanchin when we did the sliding step? When you consider that the WAY we slide is so very critical, then you can appreciate that there is a method. When we slide forward, we try to keep our head over our center of mass, move the center in a straight line, keep the center from bobbing up and down, and keep the pelvis tucked under (minimize the lumbar lordosis). The method is part of that broader concept of what sanchin stance is. Truth be told, most fighters that don't have a big gut spend more time moving than standing still when the s*&% hits the fan. Sanchin kata teaches us the fundamental elements of that movement with the full steps, the sliding steps, and the turns.

I have a neat exercise we do when warming up. I often start my class having students do dynamic tension punching movements with ibuki breathing while in a deep horse stance. It's a great way to get blood flowing through the muscles and tendons, and I find it minimizes the risk of injury when you crank it up a notch. But before we go from warmup to full focus thrusts, I redirect the students' awareness of where the real power comes from.

Start in heiko dachi - the first stance in sanchin kata after the bow in musubi dachi. It's just feet straight forward, and shoulder width apart. Once you transition to that stance, you should already be applying some of the basic elements of the stance: pelvic tuck, shoulders down, internal rotation of the femur in the hip socket (turn the feet in), etc. Now...let the arms dangle at the side (just like the opening of the kata), and think of them as wet noodles. Rotate your hips back and forth, and try to get that hip rotation to make the arms swing out. DO NOT use any arm strength. If you do it right, your belt may actually start swinging back and forth too. Savor what that feels like. Each time you rotate one way, you are creating a multiple muscle group stretch. Like a spring, you can create potential energy when you rotate it, compress it, or stretch it. But what happens when you let it go? The spring converts that potential energy to kinetic energy, and seeks its position of equilibrium where there is no more tension. Continue doing that rotation back and forth with greater amplitude and just the right "resonant" frequency, and you may actually feel something more than a spring-like force. That would be stretch receptor activation, resulting in a reflexive muscular contraction. The motion is really no different from the basketball player that first squats down before leaping to the rim. Where are these forces coming from? They are coming from the movement in the ankles, knees, hips, and trunk, that stretch the muscles controlling those joints/areas.

You can add to the sophistication of this exercise. Pull the shoulders down and make firm fists with the hands, but otherwise let the arms feel like paralyzed, wet noodles. This is part of the hard/soft concept we work so much on. Continue to make the hip rotation cause the arms to flop back and forth.

Again, once we stop putting energy on the system, our body seeks that natural "reference point" where you once again have 50/50 weight distribution, and everything is in its proper position (with the arms down by the sides), just like that opening movement in sanchin.

Hope that helps.

- Bill
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Triple Compression?

Post by David Kahn »

Bill & Dana:

With each explanation you provide, I am able, at least intellectually, to understand some of these concepts better. The next step is for me to practice them using my "unique" body and "my" Uechi-ryu. After that, maybe I can share with others what I discover.

One other area I have been having a difficult time with these past few days is how to apply these concepts to techniques that are performed on the "weak" or front leg side (i.e. hammerfist, double groin strikes, or first elbow strike, all in Seisan). Should I just ignore the fact that these are performed on the lead leg side? In a sanchin strike I move my weight back over the rear leg, closing, as Dana says, the "qua".

So, how do I move back when doing front side techniques...how do I close the "qua" and generate the rotation as I strike?

Thanks again, for your help,

David

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Triple Compression?

Post by Bill Glasheen »

BTW to confirm what I am saying...

Joe Frazier was I believe the only man to knock Muhammed Ali down (but not out). He did it with a left hook. Subsequently Ali learned how to keep Frazier from firing a jaw-crushing hook by watching Frazier's feet. As I understand it, he could see Frazier plant his front foot in a certain fashion, attempting to begin the leg and hip compression/extension that brings the hook around. Ali would fire a jab in his head each time he saw that front foot plant. It kept him from getting knocked down like that in their 2 subsequent fights.

If you want to be fast to the target, you make these movements extremely small and subtle. If you are going for the home run, you stretch/compress/coil as much as possible and then let the energy wave rip through the body.

BTW, this also works for kicks. One of the reasons (IMO) that we "toe in" for a front kick is to create a wound spring that we can release in the kick. Virtually every kick has hip movement that drives the leg. As Dana was saying, there's a nice picture of Uechi Kanei in George's book that shows him part way through a front kick. He is in the "coiled" position with lower leg pointed down and hip back a bit. Master Uechi's body undulations in his front kick used to really bother me back when I thought having a nice still body was what Uechi was about. Now that I "get it", I see why he had that whipping action of his hip. That's why he had such a great snap in his front kick, even as an old man. The key is knowing how to create the tension, and then release it by turning the toes in-then-out, or bringing the pelvis back-then-forward.

All that stuff is much more explicit in TKD kicking. It is more subtle in Uechi ryu, but still there. The leg delivers the power that the hip starts; we do not "leg press" the kick.

- Bill
Stryke

Triple Compression?

Post by Stryke »

This is a great thread , when your discussing the pelvis are you refering to a tucking action in the strike or rotation ? , I personally do a little of both .

Although i find neither really necessary big movements for power geneeration I credit the movements for generating the correct timing of contraction of the muscle groups , unweighting the front foot is probably more direct and has a bigger effect on power generation IMHO , literlly falling into your punch can add a lot of momentum .

Jsut a few thoughts , remembering im not an uechi practitioner , hope im not out of place here , just power generation is were its at , especially if your not a giant


Stryke
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Bill Glasheen
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Triple Compression?

Post by Bill Glasheen »

A little of both.

* Dana has the pelvic snap - something she learned from Nakamatsu brand of Uechi ryu.

* When you watch Uechi Kanei do a front snap kick OFF THE FRONT LEG, he tucks his pelvic back and then snaps it forward (just a bit).

* Most people have some pelvic rotation in an upper body arm thrust or lateral technique like a shuto or hammer fist.

* I have a leg internal/external rotation (within the pelvis) on the support leg that I do on all my front kicks, foot blade kicks, and side thrust kicks.

So actually we are talking about three distinct actions here.

Your comments are most welcome, Stryke.

- Bill
Stryke

Triple Compression?

Post by Stryke »

Great discription , go`s to show principles transcend style , two other things that i try and do to aid generation of power , drop centre down , actually get lower , and drop the shoulders .
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Bill Glasheen
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Triple Compression?

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Excellent question.

Think back to the exercise I just proposed. Remember that you get coiled in both directions.

These concepts aren't really unique to sanchin. Western boxers fight in a very similar stance. Watch how a boxer does a combination. If you throw a right cross and follow through, you end up coiled in the opposite direction. Rather than just returning back to the reference point, you can take advantage of the compression (stretching) in that direction by coming back with a left hook.

This is applied in seisan kata. Look at the two sets of combinations after the forward elbow thrust. One comes back compressing on the rear (left) leg to do a left boshiken (rear leg technique), and then follows through with a right nukite (front leg technique). Then one steps into a right hammerhand off the front leg followed by a left boshiken off the rear leg.

Open the back of a mechanical clock and watch the rotational pendulum device. One way the coil expands past the no tension point, and in the other direction it contracts past the no tension point. It just keeps going back and forth, saving the energy of the follow-through in the spring. This potential energy is then converted back to kinetic energy in the opposite direction. It's a great way to think about what your body is doing.

Dana has an interesting exercise she was taught that creates "jing" back and forth in this same fashion.

- Bill
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Triple Compression?

Post by David Kahn »

Bill & Dana:

Could you both explain what you mean by "jing"?

Is it a term with a precise definition, or is it more of an abstract concept?

If the term describes something more abstract, I'd love to hear how both of you describe it in your own way.

Thanks,

David

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