Sensei Glasheen--
Thank you for taking a few minutes to read this.
While corresponding with Sensei Canna he mentioned that you used plyometrics in your training. Can you recommend any resources on this subject?
Respectfully,
Frank DiMeo
Sarasota, Florida
Plyometric Training
Moderator: Available
-
Frank DiMeo
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Gulf Coast
- Contact:
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Plyometric Training
Frank
I'd be happy to do so. This topic is both worthy and timely.
Please give me a day or two to dig up some references on the subject. Some I have are academic books that are both expensive and (now) difficult to find. But I have recently come across some nice material both online and in the bookstore that will help.
Stay tuned.
- Bill
I'd be happy to do so. This topic is both worthy and timely.
Please give me a day or two to dig up some references on the subject. Some I have are academic books that are both expensive and (now) difficult to find. But I have recently come across some nice material both online and in the bookstore that will help.
Stay tuned.
- Bill
-
RickLiebespach
- Posts: 157
- Joined: Mon Feb 15, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Valrico, Florida, USA
Plyometric Training
Bill,
For those of us who haven't heard the term before, could you in a brief statement, tell us what is plyometrics?
Thanks
------------------
Rick Liebespach
Shodan(2002-08-18 Uechi-Ryu)
(Phone # upon request)
RickLiebespach@BigFoot.com
Brandon, FL
Brandon Okinawian Karate
Master Joe Guidry, Sensei
For those of us who haven't heard the term before, could you in a brief statement, tell us what is plyometrics?
Thanks
------------------
Rick Liebespach
Shodan(2002-08-18 Uechi-Ryu)
(Phone # upon request)
RickLiebespach@BigFoot.com
Brandon, FL
Brandon Okinawian Karate
Master Joe Guidry, Sensei
-
Guest
Plyometric Training
Rick, plyometrics training is a series of exercises utilized to develop explosive power and speed .
The theory being muscles are made up fast twitch and slow twitch fibers. Fast twitch fibers are responsible for speed and power, slow twitch for endurance.
A sprinter uses fast twitch muscles to explode out of the starting blocks. The sprinter can improve start by training fast twitch fibers. (plyometric exercise like jump squats for example) Think of moving big weight very fast through a full range of motion.(explosive)
A distance runner more concerned with endurance trains the slow twitch muscles (Think of low weight and a high number of reps)
So to increase the speed and power of ones kicks or punches one can utilize plyometric exercise.
To build endurance to spar multiple rounds another training method would be required, as you would want to target slow twitch muscles and cardio
Hope I haven't lost you. Bill will jump to our rescue soon. Here's a couple of links
http://members.tripod.com/~STRntHcOCh/plyotrain.html
http://martialarts.about.com/cs/plyometrics/index.htm?iam=metacrawl_1&terms=%2Bplyometrics+%2Bguide
Laird
BTW, good luck with your test!
The theory being muscles are made up fast twitch and slow twitch fibers. Fast twitch fibers are responsible for speed and power, slow twitch for endurance.
A sprinter uses fast twitch muscles to explode out of the starting blocks. The sprinter can improve start by training fast twitch fibers. (plyometric exercise like jump squats for example) Think of moving big weight very fast through a full range of motion.(explosive)
A distance runner more concerned with endurance trains the slow twitch muscles (Think of low weight and a high number of reps)
So to increase the speed and power of ones kicks or punches one can utilize plyometric exercise.
To build endurance to spar multiple rounds another training method would be required, as you would want to target slow twitch muscles and cardio
Hope I haven't lost you. Bill will jump to our rescue soon. Here's a couple of links
http://members.tripod.com/~STRntHcOCh/plyotrain.html
http://martialarts.about.com/cs/plyometrics/index.htm?iam=metacrawl_1&terms=%2Bplyometrics+%2Bguide
Laird
BTW, good luck with your test!
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Plyometric Training
Laird
You got the definition right, but the theory wrong. That's OK... Not a lot of people understand this type of training. It's just as well that some misconceptions be brought to the table so folks understand the concepts. If you understand the theory and the purpose, then you can be creative in the dojo and make up your own plyometric drills.
As I said, there isn't a lot written about it. One of my favorite references is a rather expensive textbook written by a physician I knew at U.Va. - one of the famous "jock docs." I will quote from his book.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Plyometrics are vigorous drills for developing power ... Plyometrics are based on the stretch reflex that occurs when a muscle contracts more forcefully and quickly from a prestretched position than from a relaxed state. The faster a muscle is forced into an eccentric prestretch, the more tension that is created during the concentric contraction, producing a more explosive effort. The rate at which the prestretch occurs is more critical than the physical length of the stretch.
The critical factors in explosive activities is the ability of the athlete's nervous system to switch muscular contractions from eccentric to concentric. Neuromuscular efficiency is needed, in contrast to strength movements, which depend mainly upon the number of fibers innervated and how well developed they are. Plyometrics train the neuromuscular mechanism for switching the momentum of the lengthening phase to the contracting, working phase.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Daniel N. Kulund
The Injured Athlete
Copyright 1982, J.B. Lippincott Company
Read the above paragraphs very, very carefully. Then...listen to someone like Dana explain Nakamatsu's method for doing a sanchin thrust. Or listen to Van explain some of his "TC" concepts. The foundation of these explosive movements isn't muscular, it's neuromuscular. It may take a while to appreciate this, as many athletic motions are quite complex. But the principle is applied in explosive movements, whether they be in throwing a knockout punch or in jumping high enough to dunk a basketball.
It is true that fast twitch muscle fibers are involved in explosive movements. However Plyometrics weren't designed to train fast twitch muscle fibers. Plyometrics were developed to help the athlete feel, understand, and develop the stretch reflex.
The easiest way to understand this is with a simple jumping motion. As was discussed in another thread, there are actually three joints (muscle groups) involved: the ankle (calf muscles), the knee (quadriceps), and the hip (gluteus muscles). One of the main functions of the stretch reflex is to prevent a person from hyperextending or hyperflexing a joint. If we had no stretch reflex, then we'd destroy our joints in quick movements. The stretch reflex is there to keep quick motions from following through to the point of joint destruction. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Muscles and tendons have an abundance of two special types of receptors: (1)muscle spindles that detect (a) change in length of muscle fibers and (b) rate of this change in length, and (2) Golgi tendon organs that detect the tension applied to the muscle tendon during muscle contraction or muscle stretch.
The signals from these two receptors operate entirely at a subconscious level, causing no sensory perception at all. But they do transmit tremendous amounts of information into the spinal cord and also to the cerebellum, thereby helping these two portions of the nervous system to perform their functions for controlling muscle contraction.
...
The muscle spindle reflex is frequently called simply a stretch reflex because stretch of the muscle excites the muscle spindle and this in turn cause a muscle reflex contraction. This reflex has a dynamic component and a static component.
{Note from Bill - The static component is what is fighting you when you attempt to stretch a muscle. The dynamic component is what is involved in plyometrics}
The Dynamic Stretch Reflex.
... a sudden stretch of a muscle causes reflex contraction of the same muscle, and this returns the length of the muscle back toward its original length.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Arthur Guyton
Textbook of Medical Physiology
copyright 1976, W.B. Saunders Company
So lets go to the basketball player attempting to dunk a basketball. What is the best way for him to do that? Watch very carefully. The first thing he does is squat down very quickly. All three of those muscle groups are getting stretched. Then he extends his legs and body. At that point, the athlete is combining the reflexive contraction of the muscles with his own conscious contractions, resulting in a higher leap than what could be accomplished if he simply started from a static, squatting position. Plyometrics are drills that are designed to train the reflexive part of that muscle contraction.
Enough about theory. I will save my research into available, affordable, and understandable references for the next post.
- Bill
You got the definition right, but the theory wrong. That's OK... Not a lot of people understand this type of training. It's just as well that some misconceptions be brought to the table so folks understand the concepts. If you understand the theory and the purpose, then you can be creative in the dojo and make up your own plyometric drills.
As I said, there isn't a lot written about it. One of my favorite references is a rather expensive textbook written by a physician I knew at U.Va. - one of the famous "jock docs." I will quote from his book.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Plyometrics are vigorous drills for developing power ... Plyometrics are based on the stretch reflex that occurs when a muscle contracts more forcefully and quickly from a prestretched position than from a relaxed state. The faster a muscle is forced into an eccentric prestretch, the more tension that is created during the concentric contraction, producing a more explosive effort. The rate at which the prestretch occurs is more critical than the physical length of the stretch.
The critical factors in explosive activities is the ability of the athlete's nervous system to switch muscular contractions from eccentric to concentric. Neuromuscular efficiency is needed, in contrast to strength movements, which depend mainly upon the number of fibers innervated and how well developed they are. Plyometrics train the neuromuscular mechanism for switching the momentum of the lengthening phase to the contracting, working phase.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Daniel N. Kulund
The Injured Athlete
Copyright 1982, J.B. Lippincott Company
Read the above paragraphs very, very carefully. Then...listen to someone like Dana explain Nakamatsu's method for doing a sanchin thrust. Or listen to Van explain some of his "TC" concepts. The foundation of these explosive movements isn't muscular, it's neuromuscular. It may take a while to appreciate this, as many athletic motions are quite complex. But the principle is applied in explosive movements, whether they be in throwing a knockout punch or in jumping high enough to dunk a basketball.
It is true that fast twitch muscle fibers are involved in explosive movements. However Plyometrics weren't designed to train fast twitch muscle fibers. Plyometrics were developed to help the athlete feel, understand, and develop the stretch reflex.
The easiest way to understand this is with a simple jumping motion. As was discussed in another thread, there are actually three joints (muscle groups) involved: the ankle (calf muscles), the knee (quadriceps), and the hip (gluteus muscles). One of the main functions of the stretch reflex is to prevent a person from hyperextending or hyperflexing a joint. If we had no stretch reflex, then we'd destroy our joints in quick movements. The stretch reflex is there to keep quick motions from following through to the point of joint destruction. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Muscles and tendons have an abundance of two special types of receptors: (1)muscle spindles that detect (a) change in length of muscle fibers and (b) rate of this change in length, and (2) Golgi tendon organs that detect the tension applied to the muscle tendon during muscle contraction or muscle stretch.
The signals from these two receptors operate entirely at a subconscious level, causing no sensory perception at all. But they do transmit tremendous amounts of information into the spinal cord and also to the cerebellum, thereby helping these two portions of the nervous system to perform their functions for controlling muscle contraction.
...
The muscle spindle reflex is frequently called simply a stretch reflex because stretch of the muscle excites the muscle spindle and this in turn cause a muscle reflex contraction. This reflex has a dynamic component and a static component.
{Note from Bill - The static component is what is fighting you when you attempt to stretch a muscle. The dynamic component is what is involved in plyometrics}
The Dynamic Stretch Reflex.
... a sudden stretch of a muscle causes reflex contraction of the same muscle, and this returns the length of the muscle back toward its original length.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Arthur Guyton
Textbook of Medical Physiology
copyright 1976, W.B. Saunders Company
So lets go to the basketball player attempting to dunk a basketball. What is the best way for him to do that? Watch very carefully. The first thing he does is squat down very quickly. All three of those muscle groups are getting stretched. Then he extends his legs and body. At that point, the athlete is combining the reflexive contraction of the muscles with his own conscious contractions, resulting in a higher leap than what could be accomplished if he simply started from a static, squatting position. Plyometrics are drills that are designed to train the reflexive part of that muscle contraction.
Enough about theory. I will save my research into available, affordable, and understandable references for the next post.
- Bill
Plyometric Training
Bill,
Just to add to your explanation: My wife teaches her ballet students to "plie (get into a modified Uechi horse stance), push into the floor with the heels, then point the toes as you jump (acceleration with the toes)." It takes many of her students a long time to get the sequence correctly down and when they land she reenforces that the heels again touch the ground after the toes for the next jump. The correct ballet training is a marvel of progressive body coordination which I find parallel the Uechi training. Most of her students have her imprimatur of graceful, precision fluid form and explosive jumps (jetes). Some of her 12 year old girls can out jump many of the students in a Karate class. I remember an article in Black Belt Magazine over 15 years ago by a male Ballet dancer who expounded on the influence the disciplined training had in his learning Karate.
Just to add to your explanation: My wife teaches her ballet students to "plie (get into a modified Uechi horse stance), push into the floor with the heels, then point the toes as you jump (acceleration with the toes)." It takes many of her students a long time to get the sequence correctly down and when they land she reenforces that the heels again touch the ground after the toes for the next jump. The correct ballet training is a marvel of progressive body coordination which I find parallel the Uechi training. Most of her students have her imprimatur of graceful, precision fluid form and explosive jumps (jetes). Some of her 12 year old girls can out jump many of the students in a Karate class. I remember an article in Black Belt Magazine over 15 years ago by a male Ballet dancer who expounded on the influence the disciplined training had in his learning Karate.
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Plyometric Training
Topos
My second Uechi instructor, David Finkelstein, was a big Mikhail Baryshnikov fan. Living in New York, he was able to see him perform live in his prime while an instructor of mine (latter 1970s). David even brought in members of the dance troupe to teach us posture and mechanics. Believe it or not, those lessons were what finally helped me make the transition from formless Japanese karateka to disciplined student of sanchin dachi.
I remember seeing the 1985 movie White Knights, where Barishnikov starred along with Gregory Hines - the famous contemporary Black American tap dancer. Their mastery of body mechanics was breathtaking.
That and viewing the Alvin Ailey Dance Theatre live have given me an appreciation for the body control and explosiveness that world class dancers can bring to their art.
Stay tuned for the plyometrics references; I've finished my homework. It just takes a while to do these posts.
- Bill
My second Uechi instructor, David Finkelstein, was a big Mikhail Baryshnikov fan. Living in New York, he was able to see him perform live in his prime while an instructor of mine (latter 1970s). David even brought in members of the dance troupe to teach us posture and mechanics. Believe it or not, those lessons were what finally helped me make the transition from formless Japanese karateka to disciplined student of sanchin dachi.
I remember seeing the 1985 movie White Knights, where Barishnikov starred along with Gregory Hines - the famous contemporary Black American tap dancer. Their mastery of body mechanics was breathtaking.
That and viewing the Alvin Ailey Dance Theatre live have given me an appreciation for the body control and explosiveness that world class dancers can bring to their art.
Stay tuned for the plyometrics references; I've finished my homework. It just takes a while to do these posts.
- Bill
Plyometric Training
My teacher also uses a plyometric approach (although never used the term) when teaching Sanchin thrusts.
His way of explaining it is; as you draw back your arm, keeping forearm parallel to the floor, you are "loading up" the strike.
The drawback triggers the forward thrust; there is no stopping or delay at the full drawback. Any delay or stopping at the full drawback destroys the loadup effect.
The arm "wants" to automatically launch forward when properly drawn, so just let it hurl straight out; elbows along the ribcage.
Similar with a front kick; simply lift the knee to the navel(loading up) then snap it downward, sending the foot straight out.
It all seems to work.
However; we are forbidden to "wind up" our blocks or certain punches and strikes.
Blocks are shot straight out, down or up depending on type, to avoid trying to get more "power" in the block by drawing back first: a no-no.
Same with Seiken punches and Hirakens; no windup at all. We use Fajin-type power for these as with the blocks.
It all fits together nicely.
The right TYPE of power for the right technique...a lot to learn. NM
His way of explaining it is; as you draw back your arm, keeping forearm parallel to the floor, you are "loading up" the strike.
The drawback triggers the forward thrust; there is no stopping or delay at the full drawback. Any delay or stopping at the full drawback destroys the loadup effect.
The arm "wants" to automatically launch forward when properly drawn, so just let it hurl straight out; elbows along the ribcage.
Similar with a front kick; simply lift the knee to the navel(loading up) then snap it downward, sending the foot straight out.
It all seems to work.
However; we are forbidden to "wind up" our blocks or certain punches and strikes.
Blocks are shot straight out, down or up depending on type, to avoid trying to get more "power" in the block by drawing back first: a no-no.
Same with Seiken punches and Hirakens; no windup at all. We use Fajin-type power for these as with the blocks.
It all fits together nicely.
The right TYPE of power for the right technique...a lot to learn. NM
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Plyometric Training
Nice thoughts!!!
The plyometric motions are there in your "fajin-type power." It's just more complex. When you send an energy wave through the body as in a ripple from hips to waist to shoulders to arm, you CAN trigger the stretch reflex all the way up the body. Like a rolling stone that gathers momentum as it goes down the hill, the effect gets magnified from hip to hand.
IT JUST TAKES PRACTICE...
...and an understanding that it isn't magic (chi). But when you feel it and experience it, you can finally understand why it was explained as it was before a modern understanding of basic anatomy and physiology.
It almost IS magic.
- Bill
The plyometric motions are there in your "fajin-type power." It's just more complex. When you send an energy wave through the body as in a ripple from hips to waist to shoulders to arm, you CAN trigger the stretch reflex all the way up the body. Like a rolling stone that gathers momentum as it goes down the hill, the effect gets magnified from hip to hand.
IT JUST TAKES PRACTICE...
...and an understanding that it isn't magic (chi). But when you feel it and experience it, you can finally understand why it was explained as it was before a modern understanding of basic anatomy and physiology.
It almost IS magic.
- Bill
-
Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Plyometric Training
In 2green's new post he talks bout the bullwhip as a teacher for internal power.
This is the one thing I wasn't mentioning during the other thread on triple compression. What I feel when I strike is just that power is transferred up my spine, but that my spine ripples and adds power to the strike.
So how many joints are in the spine...Is a sanchin strike a 17 joint compression? (ankle to knee to hip to many vertabrae to shoulder to elbow)
I figured if I mentioned this at the beginning somebody'd say I was off the deep end. But I belive the spine plays a crucial role in creating the fa jing that seems so magical.
Dana
This is the one thing I wasn't mentioning during the other thread on triple compression. What I feel when I strike is just that power is transferred up my spine, but that my spine ripples and adds power to the strike.
So how many joints are in the spine...Is a sanchin strike a 17 joint compression? (ankle to knee to hip to many vertabrae to shoulder to elbow)
I figured if I mentioned this at the beginning somebody'd say I was off the deep end. But I belive the spine plays a crucial role in creating the fa jing that seems so magical.
Dana
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Plyometric Training
Dana
You a smart girl! We are absolutely reading off the same page.
In the beginning, we make things simple in sanchin. Put your feet here, tuck your butt under, keep your shoulders down, pull the arm back to here, let it go out to there... But yes, we then loosen things up a bit, and allow things to move w.r.t. each other that we wouldn't have considered before.
In the beginning, I only talked about the first three joints from the floor to the hip, and these were mostly just flexed vs. extended. When performing a power clean in the weight room, one is mostly applying plyometrics to these first three joints.
But then as the energy wave continues up the spine, we can indeed talk about one vertebrae rotating w.r.t. the other. It is first a wave of muscle extension from lower to upper part of trunk, followed by wave of reflexive contraction, also from lower trunk to upper trunk. It's a bit like "the wave" being done around a stadium, where everyone first stands up and then sits down. Anyone who has swung a baseball bat and hit the ball anywhere understands this.
For the plyometric exercise here, there are a number of choices.
* We have medicine ball exercises that can help. One example would start back-to-back with a partner. You rotate to the left to receive the medicine ball, and rotate to the right to hand it back (or vice versa).
* You could also do this on a swinging heavybag by receiving it on one arm (or hand) with a rotation of the body, and refexively hurling it back out with a counter rotation.
* Or...you could just take a big, weighted baseball bat (or several baseball bats) and swing it (them) back and forth with lots of body rotation.
- Bill
You a smart girl!
We are absolutely reading off the same page.In the beginning, we make things simple in sanchin. Put your feet here, tuck your butt under, keep your shoulders down, pull the arm back to here, let it go out to there... But yes, we then loosen things up a bit, and allow things to move w.r.t. each other that we wouldn't have considered before.
In the beginning, I only talked about the first three joints from the floor to the hip, and these were mostly just flexed vs. extended. When performing a power clean in the weight room, one is mostly applying plyometrics to these first three joints.
But then as the energy wave continues up the spine, we can indeed talk about one vertebrae rotating w.r.t. the other. It is first a wave of muscle extension from lower to upper part of trunk, followed by wave of reflexive contraction, also from lower trunk to upper trunk. It's a bit like "the wave" being done around a stadium, where everyone first stands up and then sits down. Anyone who has swung a baseball bat and hit the ball anywhere understands this.
For the plyometric exercise here, there are a number of choices.
* We have medicine ball exercises that can help. One example would start back-to-back with a partner. You rotate to the left to receive the medicine ball, and rotate to the right to hand it back (or vice versa).
* You could also do this on a swinging heavybag by receiving it on one arm (or hand) with a rotation of the body, and refexively hurling it back out with a counter rotation.
* Or...you could just take a big, weighted baseball bat (or several baseball bats) and swing it (them) back and forth with lots of body rotation.
- Bill
-
Guest
Plyometric Training
Told you Bill would come too our rescue!
Bill, thanks for clearing things up. I'm still a bit confused however. If I understand this correctly it's like reverse pnf stretching.(we contract a muscle so it may reach exhaustion and relax and then we stretch it a bit further)
In these plyometric exercises if I understand them correctly we fully stretch some muscles so we may fully contract some muscles.
I also understand that we must stretch the full range of motion and that what is important is the speed of the stretch.
So assuming this statement is true, if we want to generate some power why draw the arm back slowly on a sanchin thrust?
Do we get more from a full stretch to the rear or a fast one,or is it D all of the above.
Just trying to get a handle on this stuff before I really start playing with it. I've learned that if you don't understand your training method you run the risk of doing more harm than good.
Btw, I discovered that if you weight train you must work opposing muscle groups.
I didn't thus 50% of the shoulder problems we self inflicted.
Is this pre loading or stretch a way of programing the opposing muscles to relax so the striking muscles can perform at 100%?
I've read about joint damage as a result of pylometrics, what are your views on this?
Laird
Bill, thanks for clearing things up. I'm still a bit confused however. If I understand this correctly it's like reverse pnf stretching.(we contract a muscle so it may reach exhaustion and relax and then we stretch it a bit further)
In these plyometric exercises if I understand them correctly we fully stretch some muscles so we may fully contract some muscles.
I also understand that we must stretch the full range of motion and that what is important is the speed of the stretch.
So assuming this statement is true, if we want to generate some power why draw the arm back slowly on a sanchin thrust?
Do we get more from a full stretch to the rear or a fast one,or is it D all of the above.
Just trying to get a handle on this stuff before I really start playing with it. I've learned that if you don't understand your training method you run the risk of doing more harm than good.
Btw, I discovered that if you weight train you must work opposing muscle groups.
I didn't thus 50% of the shoulder problems we self inflicted.
Is this pre loading or stretch a way of programing the opposing muscles to relax so the striking muscles can perform at 100%?
I've read about joint damage as a result of pylometrics, what are your views on this?
Laird
-
Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Plyometric Training
Bill,
I'm unclear on how the rotational plyometric exercises you listed help with delivering energy up the spine.
I guess I'm thinking of somthing that would have a motion more like the dolphin kick used with the butterfly stroke.
What is it you said - transitional vs rotational energy --- and that I may be adding a twist on the horizontal axis that most men wouldn't need to do - that they'd be able to generate enough power just going up the vertical axis.
Dana
I'm unclear on how the rotational plyometric exercises you listed help with delivering energy up the spine.
I guess I'm thinking of somthing that would have a motion more like the dolphin kick used with the butterfly stroke.
What is it you said - transitional vs rotational energy --- and that I may be adding a twist on the horizontal axis that most men wouldn't need to do - that they'd be able to generate enough power just going up the vertical axis.
Dana
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Plyometric Training
Hey, Laird! Hey Dana!
I was busy doing another post on this when I saw these come in. I really needed to clear some things up here. I'll take them one at a time.
First to Laird...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Please read what I wrote above very carefully, and then go back to the Kulund and Guyton references I quoted above. If you understand these concepts, you are way ahead of the class here. Remember that the static stretch reflex is the response to the length of the muscle, and the dynamic stretch reflex is the response to the change in length of the muscle (dL/dt, if you took calculus). Remember that PNF stretches are done in a relatively static position, and plyometrics are all about springy movement. Stretching is all about increasing the maximum length of a muscle, and plyometric training is all about increasing the response to an extremely high change in length of the muscle (high dL/dt).
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Consider "bunny hops" as a plyometric classic. There you just imagine yourself as a bunny and hop, hop, hop. What you want is to feel like your legs are springs. You want to maximize the RATE of the spring down and up. If there is ANY pause in the down position, you just killed all the energy. The feeling is one of boing, boing, boing... You hit the floor with flexed joints (ankles, knees, hips), go down half a foot or so, and spring right back up again. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Kulund says <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Now to Dana's issues... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm unclear on how the rotational plyometric exercises you listed help with delivering energy up the spine.
I guess I'm thinking of somthing that would have a motion more like the dolphin kick used with the butterfly stroke.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's clear to me that - yes - we are talking about different degrees of freedom of motion of the spine. I was talking about rotation about the axis; you were talking about flexing/extending the spine (the dolphin or whale or butterfly stroke movement). The former would be trained doing twisting motions like swinging a bat back and forth, or swinging a medicine ball around. The latter can be trained by doing overhead throws with the medicine ball, using a spinal extension/flexion motion.
As to what someone would use in his or her sanchin thrust, well we may be getting ahead of ourselves here. Let's just say that I use a (very slight) spinal rotation when I wind up and fire my sanchin thrust. How much you flex the spine is ... well ... I guess we'll have to get together and just do some thrusts. In any case, it's all theoretically possible.
Furthermore, many athletic motions don't involve pure movements, but rather combinations of movements in different degrees of freedom. For example, one may be extending at the hip while also rotating the leg within the hip socket. It can get complex. This is why it's often best to train with free weights as opposed to staying with machine weights. The former more closely resembles real world motions.
Hope that helps.
- Bill
I was busy doing another post on this when I saw these come in. I really needed to clear some things up here. I'll take them one at a time.
First to Laird...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Sort of... In PNF stretching, we are attempting to quiet the static stretch reflex so we can stretch the muscle even more. In plyometrics, we are attempting to strengthen the dynamic stretch reflex so we can develop power in our athletic motions.I'm still a bit confused however. If I understand this correctly it's like reverse pnf stretching.
Please read what I wrote above very carefully, and then go back to the Kulund and Guyton references I quoted above. If you understand these concepts, you are way ahead of the class here. Remember that the static stretch reflex is the response to the length of the muscle, and the dynamic stretch reflex is the response to the change in length of the muscle (dL/dt, if you took calculus). Remember that PNF stretches are done in a relatively static position, and plyometrics are all about springy movement. Stretching is all about increasing the maximum length of a muscle, and plyometric training is all about increasing the response to an extremely high change in length of the muscle (high dL/dt).
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
No. Remember what Kulund says: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quoteIn these plyometric exercises if I understand them correctly we fully stretch some muscles so we may fully contract some muscles.
You DO NOT want to do deep stretches.The rate at which the prestretch occurs is more critical than the physical length of the stretch.
Consider "bunny hops" as a plyometric classic. There you just imagine yourself as a bunny and hop, hop, hop. What you want is to feel like your legs are springs. You want to maximize the RATE of the spring down and up. If there is ANY pause in the down position, you just killed all the energy. The feeling is one of boing, boing, boing... You hit the floor with flexed joints (ankles, knees, hips), go down half a foot or so, and spring right back up again. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Because we need to crawl before we walk before we run. Plyometrics is advanced training for conditioned athletes. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quotewhy draw the arm back slowly on a sanchin thrust?
I never thought about that. However it is true that when agonist muscle is stretched or strongly contracted, antagonistic neural input is reduced. Certain advanced stretching techniques attempt to take advantage of this.Is this pre loading or stretch a way of programing the opposing muscles to relax so the striking muscles can perform at 100%?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Yes. Again, plyometrics is advanced training for conditioned athletes. If you are a candidate for low impact aerobics, you shouldn't be doing plyometric training.I've read about joint damage as a result of pylometrics, what are your views on this?
Kulund says <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I've read similar things in other references. In any case, the general point is made and reinforced.Because plyometrics are so demanding, they should not be done every day. The athlete must develop basic leg strength amounting to about two times his body weight before these exercises are added to his training program. The exercises should be done on turf or mats to prevent heel bruises and shin splints. The very young athlete may not be ready for plyometric exercises.
Now to Dana's issues... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm unclear on how the rotational plyometric exercises you listed help with delivering energy up the spine.
I guess I'm thinking of somthing that would have a motion more like the dolphin kick used with the butterfly stroke.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's clear to me that - yes - we are talking about different degrees of freedom of motion of the spine. I was talking about rotation about the axis; you were talking about flexing/extending the spine (the dolphin or whale or butterfly stroke movement). The former would be trained doing twisting motions like swinging a bat back and forth, or swinging a medicine ball around. The latter can be trained by doing overhead throws with the medicine ball, using a spinal extension/flexion motion.
As to what someone would use in his or her sanchin thrust, well we may be getting ahead of ourselves here. Let's just say that I use a (very slight) spinal rotation when I wind up and fire my sanchin thrust. How much you flex the spine is ... well ... I guess we'll have to get together and just do some thrusts. In any case, it's all theoretically possible.
Furthermore, many athletic motions don't involve pure movements, but rather combinations of movements in different degrees of freedom. For example, one may be extending at the hip while also rotating the leg within the hip socket. It can get complex. This is why it's often best to train with free weights as opposed to staying with machine weights. The former more closely resembles real world motions.
Hope that helps.
- Bill
