<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The secret to Asai sensei's Karate is in his joints. He believes we must use our joints more softly. If we do this our Karate will change forever. The problem in that as people get older their muscles slow down , therefore , their speed and power also is reduced. However , as Asai sensei has increased with age , so too has his strength and speed.
This phenomenon is due to his efficient use and suppleness of his joints. He feels that one's joint power is much more important then one's muscle power , and he will try to explain this.
The secret to joint power is to use the whole joint in a natural way , with freedom. This strong , fast snap of the joint can be used with any technique from any position. This is the special point , using such a snapping power from any position.
So how do we apply this snapping joint technique? If we take the simplest Karate technique , the straight punch , most people just concentrate on power going in a straight line. However , we must concentrate on the shoulder and elbow to push and twist the punch forward. The direct movement forward becomes secondary to the twisting penetrating power of the shoulder and elbow.
Lets think of our joint as Nunchaku. A nunchaku technique is very simple , with too pieces of wood connected by string. However , as one of the linbs is stopped this weak string whips the other limb forward , producing a very powerful blow. This string , containing no"muscle",can release alot of power. The same can be seen in Kendo. An expert , when holding the shinai (bamboo sword) does not use tension , just relaxes and releases the power. Where as a novice would have a tense grip on the shinai , reducing power and stability and unable to use the snap of the technique.
Therefore , whether it be the nunchaku , kendo or karate technique, we must use the snap of a technique , like a whip.Without this whipping action power and speed will be reduced <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This was taken from From http://www.jks.jp/data-001.htm :
Any information would be great.
Bill could you explain joint power???
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Bill could you explain joint power???
Calling this "joint power" is just imprecise language. Nevertheless, he's talking about important concepts that we've actually been discussing both here and on Van's page.
Check out this thread.
Triple Compression
Actually this person is talking about a number of different concepts in the same thread. I'm sure though that he's a perfectly competent practitioner.
One concept is the idea of relaxing certain aspects of the upper body while starting the muscular contractions with the legs and hips. The energy wave that heads up the trunk, through the shoulders, and into the arms is best transferred if one relaxes all the muscles that would be antagonists to the motion (like the biceps), while contracting only those that help channel the energy properly (like the latissimus muscles).
Another concept is allowing muscles in the path of the energy wave to be a bit loose so that one triggers the dynamic stretch reflex (worked on in plyometric training, by the way). Once that reflex is triggered and the muscle reflexively contracts, then one can add voluntary contraction to the motion. This takes a lot of practice to get right. One needs the right timing of relaxation and subsequent contraction up the body. As I described it earlier, it's a bit like "the wave" going around a stadium, where each person in the crowd must first stand up and then sit down. If the person's intra-body muscular relaxation/contraction sequence is optimal, you get an ever-increasing energy wave going up from hips to fist, like a stone gaining momentum as it rolls down the hill.
It looks and feels like magic when it is done right, but the individual elements that make it possible are quite simple.
You can see these concepts in practice by watching a major league baseball pitcher throw a fastball. Look at it some time, frame by frame.
- Bill
Check out this thread.
Triple Compression
Actually this person is talking about a number of different concepts in the same thread. I'm sure though that he's a perfectly competent practitioner.
One concept is the idea of relaxing certain aspects of the upper body while starting the muscular contractions with the legs and hips. The energy wave that heads up the trunk, through the shoulders, and into the arms is best transferred if one relaxes all the muscles that would be antagonists to the motion (like the biceps), while contracting only those that help channel the energy properly (like the latissimus muscles).
Another concept is allowing muscles in the path of the energy wave to be a bit loose so that one triggers the dynamic stretch reflex (worked on in plyometric training, by the way). Once that reflex is triggered and the muscle reflexively contracts, then one can add voluntary contraction to the motion. This takes a lot of practice to get right. One needs the right timing of relaxation and subsequent contraction up the body. As I described it earlier, it's a bit like "the wave" going around a stadium, where each person in the crowd must first stand up and then sit down. If the person's intra-body muscular relaxation/contraction sequence is optimal, you get an ever-increasing energy wave going up from hips to fist, like a stone gaining momentum as it rolls down the hill.
It looks and feels like magic when it is done right, but the individual elements that make it possible are quite simple.
You can see these concepts in practice by watching a major league baseball pitcher throw a fastball. Look at it some time, frame by frame.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Bill could you explain joint power???
By the way, the reason someone might call this "joint power" is because in order to accomplish what I discussed above, one might choose to let a joint swivel that the next person might keep still. But muscles control the movements about a joint, and it is the way that they relax and contract that makes the magic happen.
A beginner in sanchin keeps the whole lower body still, and just moves the arm when doing a thrust. An advanced person gets more lower body and trunk involvement. In order to do that, you see more activity about the lower and mid body joints.
- Bill
A beginner in sanchin keeps the whole lower body still, and just moves the arm when doing a thrust. An advanced person gets more lower body and trunk involvement. In order to do that, you see more activity about the lower and mid body joints.
- Bill
Bill could you explain joint power???
Thanks Bill.
I've been reading the Triple compresion thread and I wondered if it was the same.
Thanks again.
This question came up on another forum and I knew you could explain it. Is it okay if I show it to the other guys? I will list you as the giver of information.
[This message has been edited by Brett (edited August 23, 2002).]
I've been reading the Triple compresion thread and I wondered if it was the same.
Thanks again.
This question came up on another forum and I knew you could explain it. Is it okay if I show it to the other guys? I will list you as the giver of information.
[This message has been edited by Brett (edited August 23, 2002).]
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jorvik
Bill could you explain joint power???
Bill
this seems really clever stuff.Way above my head, but how good is it?I mean, when you say it looks and feels like magic....can you give a bit more advice on how to develop this type of power some simple exercises or simple techniques...I sometimes have a real struggle to understand what you are saying, and to apply it. I asked you about the trick of people having someone jump on their stomach, you were kind enough to explain the principle......and I've tried it and it works. But sometimes your stuff is too clever for me.
this seems really clever stuff.Way above my head, but how good is it?I mean, when you say it looks and feels like magic....can you give a bit more advice on how to develop this type of power some simple exercises or simple techniques...I sometimes have a real struggle to understand what you are saying, and to apply it. I asked you about the trick of people having someone jump on their stomach, you were kind enough to explain the principle......and I've tried it and it works. But sometimes your stuff is too clever for me.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Bill could you explain joint power???
It's really not that clever; most good athletes do this. The problem we have in karate is that we take people that move correctly, and put them in a straightjacket called "good form." For a long time, this "good form" is a seriously dumbed-down way of doing things that you'd do correctly if you were a natural athlete.
Karate is very good at teaching the lowest common denominator how to do something - with enough time. But it CAN be very bad at teaching a natural athlete how to punch or kick. Sometimes we get way too pedantic.
Some time, go into a classroom of 6-8 year olds that are brand new. Show them how to hold their fist. Then line them up in front of a punching shield, and have them punch the thing. One out of five of them will have pretty decent mechanics. The other four will need more work. The thing to do with that "natural" athlete is to reign in the elbows and get the hands up and put the feet more or less in the right place.
As for how to get this "joint power" thing to work, well here's the deal. Don't think of bench pressing your punch. Instead, just relax your upper body and swivel at the hips. Think of your legs and hips being the one end of the nunchaku, the rope being your spine, and the arm being the other end of the nunchaku. Being a bit "sloppy" at first is fine. Just refine your motion once you get the idea of using your hips rather than your arms. With time you will learn to add more arm power back in, but you just need to do it with the right timing.
Hope that helps.
- Bill
Karate is very good at teaching the lowest common denominator how to do something - with enough time. But it CAN be very bad at teaching a natural athlete how to punch or kick. Sometimes we get way too pedantic.
Some time, go into a classroom of 6-8 year olds that are brand new. Show them how to hold their fist. Then line them up in front of a punching shield, and have them punch the thing. One out of five of them will have pretty decent mechanics. The other four will need more work. The thing to do with that "natural" athlete is to reign in the elbows and get the hands up and put the feet more or less in the right place.
As for how to get this "joint power" thing to work, well here's the deal. Don't think of bench pressing your punch. Instead, just relax your upper body and swivel at the hips. Think of your legs and hips being the one end of the nunchaku, the rope being your spine, and the arm being the other end of the nunchaku. Being a bit "sloppy" at first is fine. Just refine your motion once you get the idea of using your hips rather than your arms. With time you will learn to add more arm power back in, but you just need to do it with the right timing.
Hope that helps.
- Bill
Bill could you explain joint power???
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:
As for how to get this "joint power" thing to work, well here's the deal. Don't think of bench pressing your punch. Instead, just relax your upper body and swivel at the hips. Think of your legs and hips being the one end of the nunchaku, the rope being your spine, and the arm being the other end of the nunchaku. Being a bit "sloppy" at first is fine. Just refine your motion once you get the idea of using your hips rather than your arms. With time you will learn to add more arm power back in, but you just need to do it with the right timing.
Hope that helps.
- Bill<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It helps a lot Bill but wouldn't this basicly telegraph your movement? The only reason I ask this is because I telegraph everything and I am working on that. I am wondering if it may help me loose the telegraph (so-to-speak).
Thanks again for your help.
As for how to get this "joint power" thing to work, well here's the deal. Don't think of bench pressing your punch. Instead, just relax your upper body and swivel at the hips. Think of your legs and hips being the one end of the nunchaku, the rope being your spine, and the arm being the other end of the nunchaku. Being a bit "sloppy" at first is fine. Just refine your motion once you get the idea of using your hips rather than your arms. With time you will learn to add more arm power back in, but you just need to do it with the right timing.
Hope that helps.
- Bill<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It helps a lot Bill but wouldn't this basicly telegraph your movement? The only reason I ask this is because I telegraph everything and I am working on that. I am wondering if it may help me loose the telegraph (so-to-speak).
Thanks again for your help.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Bill could you explain joint power???
Yes, at first you will telegraph big time. It's kind of like doing a hoola hoop. At first you move your body in big girations to get the thing to go around. But with time you can learn to get the thing spinning with less and less motion. It's a matter of feeling your way into the optimal mechanics.
Understand that there are many ways to throw a punch. There are ways I teach people to do a punch for a tournament fight that are way different from what you would throw if you've properly set a person up in a real fight and are ready to do the "ippon." We've had discussions about this before (sometimes a bit more vigorous than that
). Let's just say that there's a time and a place to do each kind of method of the same basic thing - a thrust.
For example, with a "quick release" punch, you extend all joints simultaneously (from rear leg to thrusting arm), and don't worry about maximizing your power. Most of the power actually comes from the forward movement of the center, which is delivered on a small surface area of your hand. This is the equivalent of the boxer's jab, or the streetfighter throwing sand in your eyes. It's a great way to lead into an opponent. Once you have fist in face and aren't worried about the counterpunch, the second thrust can be done much more deliberately. With time you learn to flow quick release into ippon, and you have the best of both worlds.
- Bill
Understand that there are many ways to throw a punch. There are ways I teach people to do a punch for a tournament fight that are way different from what you would throw if you've properly set a person up in a real fight and are ready to do the "ippon." We've had discussions about this before (sometimes a bit more vigorous than that
). Let's just say that there's a time and a place to do each kind of method of the same basic thing - a thrust.For example, with a "quick release" punch, you extend all joints simultaneously (from rear leg to thrusting arm), and don't worry about maximizing your power. Most of the power actually comes from the forward movement of the center, which is delivered on a small surface area of your hand. This is the equivalent of the boxer's jab, or the streetfighter throwing sand in your eyes. It's a great way to lead into an opponent. Once you have fist in face and aren't worried about the counterpunch, the second thrust can be done much more deliberately. With time you learn to flow quick release into ippon, and you have the best of both worlds.
- Bill
Bill could you explain joint power???
Oh OK, I see what you mean.
Thanks again!
Thanks again!
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jorvik
Bill could you explain joint power???
Bill
thanks for the explanation.How could this be tied into a weight training programme? by that I mean is there one particular lift, or sequence of lifts that are better than others,or that would assist in developing this sort of technique ( I know that youv'e already given some hints about correct training on other threads) Thing is I don't know if I'd do the right sort of stuff or do contradictary exercises. I assume that for "power punching" that I'd need to do stuff that a shot putter would do....and then ....( because its so telegraphed) that I'd have to refine it..and kinda work it into my stuff.....is this anything like Mr.Canna's TC?.....some of the people who come on this forum ( like myself) are many miles distant..so I don't really understand some of the things said here, I mean seeing Messrs Nakahodo and Tomoyose on mpegs and hearing how they train...and given their age, was a really profound experience to me..but youv'e known about them for years.So youv'e probably developed ideas and concepts based on that........Just a thought Bill....ever thought about writing a book ( or indeed, have you).......I'll put down know for an advance order( autographed of course).Really,
I'm not "pulling your chain", get writing!!
thanks for the explanation.How could this be tied into a weight training programme? by that I mean is there one particular lift, or sequence of lifts that are better than others,or that would assist in developing this sort of technique ( I know that youv'e already given some hints about correct training on other threads) Thing is I don't know if I'd do the right sort of stuff or do contradictary exercises. I assume that for "power punching" that I'd need to do stuff that a shot putter would do....and then ....( because its so telegraphed) that I'd have to refine it..and kinda work it into my stuff.....is this anything like Mr.Canna's TC?.....some of the people who come on this forum ( like myself) are many miles distant..so I don't really understand some of the things said here, I mean seeing Messrs Nakahodo and Tomoyose on mpegs and hearing how they train...and given their age, was a really profound experience to me..but youv'e known about them for years.So youv'e probably developed ideas and concepts based on that........Just a thought Bill....ever thought about writing a book ( or indeed, have you).......I'll put down know for an advance order( autographed of course).Really,
I'm not "pulling your chain", get writing!!
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Bill could you explain joint power???
jorvik
Thanks for the compliments. Actually there is so much good material out there now that I'm enjoying absorbing it all. Perhaps when things digest just a bit...
You've asked a lot of really good questions, jorvik, and it's difficult for me to answer them all properly.
I must tell you that I've never been to Van Canna's dojo, nor have I worked with Master Nakamatsu. But I am close with and have worked out with several of each of their students. My assessment is that "TC" and "Nakamatsu Ryu" are similar, with each emphasizing a particular element more than the next. A little heavier breathing here, a little more hip snap there, etc.
It's all good. We are lucky to have creative people pushing the envelope in different directions.
And then there is Master Nakahodo... When I first met him and saw him correcting kata on Thompson's island, his quartz-clock-like precision made me think Marcelle Merceau - on steroids - in a karate gi!
I never had the opportunity to see Tomoyose Ryuko in his prime, but my first Uechi teacher did (as did of course Sensei Mattson). I happen to really like what I believe that paradigm to be - one of very fluid speed. The man is (was) a master of "transitions" in kata. This man understood that sometimes the most important movements were "in-between the movements", and that powerful ICHI, NI, SAN kata were...powerful white belt kata. I am biased into thinking that Uechi Kanbun's legendary speed (glare in the eyes with fast hands) came from practicing kata in this fashion. The Fuzhou suparinpei I now practice - something that can only be performed with this fluid type power - awakened me even more to that.
I'm having fun, jorvik. I love them all.
As for how to get this power stuff in your training, well...that's a good question. I even thought of starting a thread on this, as I think there are two very different directions to take this.
You know, you can choose to do "the daily dozen" (training the body) as part of a karate workout, or you can choose to do it outside. Some folks come to a karate dojo expecting to sweat. I know I had these expectations placed on me by beginning students of karate at U.Va. Fine...I would find some young bucks that loved to drive people into the ground. We'd do some karate, some pushups, some karate, some squats and kicks, some karate, some sit-ups, some karate, some leg lifts... We weren't happy unless we had 3 or 4 gasping for air on the sidelines and perhaps one person per week puking downstairs. The first-year students loved it!
However...
I prefer having a karate class evolve to the point where even the stretching is done outside the class and people come in the dojo to practice kata or kumite technique. This really becomes a lot more like the old way that karate was taught - up close and personal.
If you like mixing karate and exercise - and there's nothing wrong with that - then a Ron Fagen approach is the way to go. Ron will have a weekly class where he starts with a plyometric drill, does a partner drill that uses the basic motion, and then do a sparring drill based on that. Then he goes back to ANOTHER plyometric drill, etc. You walk out after two hours knowing you just had a pretty darned good workout. Actually you walk out with rubber legs and skin-torn feet!
Personally I like doing 90% karate in my classes. I occasionally do drills of karate movements in a plyometric fashion. For instance I'll have people fire off roundhouse after roundhouse in rapid succession so that the leg MUST move in a plyometric manner. The same can be done with front kiicks (Jim Thompson used to do drills like this). Or if I have the mats out, I sometimes take advanced students and have them do dive rolls back and forth in-between two partners that receive-and-heave the uke's body in a sanchin-like double-armed thrust. The "hurlers" are getting a plyometric exercise of their double boshiken motion, and the guy in the middle doing rolls is learning to roll so fast that thought is completely removed from the movement.
Or...I'll work on movement - one of the most important but under-taught aspect of Uechi - by having people move plyometrically in the old 8-direction exercise seen in Mattson's Uechiryu Karatedo. Then I'll have them do motions in kyu kumite, and have them "receive and deliver" at the end of the sequences in plyometric fashion.
Creativity - that's the name of the game. If you understand the principles, and then watch a few great teachers like Sensei Fagen, then the sky's the limit. Ultimately the workouts can become richer and richer with training detail.
BUT...
I personally like to do most of my "sweating" outside the dojo. I have always taught in gyms with complete weight rooms, because I believe in training a complete athlete. Not all my students practice the vision that I promote, but the ones that do leapfrog way ahead of the rest of the group. Modern gyms have it right; there's nothing better than having the best of basic training combined with the finest technique workout.
While Andrew - someone that practices the plyometrics in conjunction with karate training - prefers Chu's Jumping into Plyometrics, I prefer Explosive Power & Strength by the same author. Here Chu shows how to devote training time doing "complex training" methods. Resistance and plyometric training become part of the same weight workout - of course sprinkled with some PNF stretches for the Glasheen-style version. And then of course I add in my own forearm/finger training and toe training. I've got my own special brand of torture there.
One must plan very, very carefully. There is SO MUCH to do, and one must do it intensely but within a fixed period of time. One must also reshuffle the workout deck several times a year. You can destroy both your body and your personal life if you spend too much time in the gym. This is why carefully studying examples of workout routines by folks like Chu can really help get you there.
Hope I've helped you out some.
- Bill
P.S. I'll keep the book thing in mind.
Thanks for the compliments. Actually there is so much good material out there now that I'm enjoying absorbing it all. Perhaps when things digest just a bit...
You've asked a lot of really good questions, jorvik, and it's difficult for me to answer them all properly.
I must tell you that I've never been to Van Canna's dojo, nor have I worked with Master Nakamatsu. But I am close with and have worked out with several of each of their students. My assessment is that "TC" and "Nakamatsu Ryu" are similar, with each emphasizing a particular element more than the next. A little heavier breathing here, a little more hip snap there, etc.
It's all good. We are lucky to have creative people pushing the envelope in different directions.
And then there is Master Nakahodo... When I first met him and saw him correcting kata on Thompson's island, his quartz-clock-like precision made me think Marcelle Merceau - on steroids - in a karate gi!
I never had the opportunity to see Tomoyose Ryuko in his prime, but my first Uechi teacher did (as did of course Sensei Mattson). I happen to really like what I believe that paradigm to be - one of very fluid speed. The man is (was) a master of "transitions" in kata. This man understood that sometimes the most important movements were "in-between the movements", and that powerful ICHI, NI, SAN kata were...powerful white belt kata. I am biased into thinking that Uechi Kanbun's legendary speed (glare in the eyes with fast hands) came from practicing kata in this fashion. The Fuzhou suparinpei I now practice - something that can only be performed with this fluid type power - awakened me even more to that.
I'm having fun, jorvik. I love them all.
As for how to get this power stuff in your training, well...that's a good question. I even thought of starting a thread on this, as I think there are two very different directions to take this.
You know, you can choose to do "the daily dozen" (training the body) as part of a karate workout, or you can choose to do it outside. Some folks come to a karate dojo expecting to sweat. I know I had these expectations placed on me by beginning students of karate at U.Va. Fine...I would find some young bucks that loved to drive people into the ground. We'd do some karate, some pushups, some karate, some squats and kicks, some karate, some sit-ups, some karate, some leg lifts... We weren't happy unless we had 3 or 4 gasping for air on the sidelines and perhaps one person per week puking downstairs. The first-year students loved it!
However...
I prefer having a karate class evolve to the point where even the stretching is done outside the class and people come in the dojo to practice kata or kumite technique. This really becomes a lot more like the old way that karate was taught - up close and personal.
If you like mixing karate and exercise - and there's nothing wrong with that - then a Ron Fagen approach is the way to go. Ron will have a weekly class where he starts with a plyometric drill, does a partner drill that uses the basic motion, and then do a sparring drill based on that. Then he goes back to ANOTHER plyometric drill, etc. You walk out after two hours knowing you just had a pretty darned good workout. Actually you walk out with rubber legs and skin-torn feet!
Personally I like doing 90% karate in my classes. I occasionally do drills of karate movements in a plyometric fashion. For instance I'll have people fire off roundhouse after roundhouse in rapid succession so that the leg MUST move in a plyometric manner. The same can be done with front kiicks (Jim Thompson used to do drills like this). Or if I have the mats out, I sometimes take advanced students and have them do dive rolls back and forth in-between two partners that receive-and-heave the uke's body in a sanchin-like double-armed thrust. The "hurlers" are getting a plyometric exercise of their double boshiken motion, and the guy in the middle doing rolls is learning to roll so fast that thought is completely removed from the movement.
Or...I'll work on movement - one of the most important but under-taught aspect of Uechi - by having people move plyometrically in the old 8-direction exercise seen in Mattson's Uechiryu Karatedo. Then I'll have them do motions in kyu kumite, and have them "receive and deliver" at the end of the sequences in plyometric fashion.
Creativity - that's the name of the game. If you understand the principles, and then watch a few great teachers like Sensei Fagen, then the sky's the limit. Ultimately the workouts can become richer and richer with training detail.
BUT...
I personally like to do most of my "sweating" outside the dojo. I have always taught in gyms with complete weight rooms, because I believe in training a complete athlete. Not all my students practice the vision that I promote, but the ones that do leapfrog way ahead of the rest of the group. Modern gyms have it right; there's nothing better than having the best of basic training combined with the finest technique workout.
While Andrew - someone that practices the plyometrics in conjunction with karate training - prefers Chu's Jumping into Plyometrics, I prefer Explosive Power & Strength by the same author. Here Chu shows how to devote training time doing "complex training" methods. Resistance and plyometric training become part of the same weight workout - of course sprinkled with some PNF stretches for the Glasheen-style version.
And then of course I add in my own forearm/finger training and toe training. I've got my own special brand of torture there.One must plan very, very carefully. There is SO MUCH to do, and one must do it intensely but within a fixed period of time. One must also reshuffle the workout deck several times a year. You can destroy both your body and your personal life if you spend too much time in the gym. This is why carefully studying examples of workout routines by folks like Chu can really help get you there.
Hope I've helped you out some.
- Bill
P.S. I'll keep the book thing in mind.
-
jorvik
Bill could you explain joint power???
quote
"As for how to get this power stuff in your training, well...that's a good question. I even thought of starting a thread on this, as I think there are two very different directions to take this."
Bill I wish you would.....maybe even take it further, detail some workouts and after a couple of months we can all come back on line and discuss how they've helped our karate..
P.S dont't forget the book
"As for how to get this power stuff in your training, well...that's a good question. I even thought of starting a thread on this, as I think there are two very different directions to take this."
Bill I wish you would.....maybe even take it further, detail some workouts and after a couple of months we can all come back on line and discuss how they've helped our karate..
P.S dont't forget the book
