Townhall Debate..

IJ · Post by IJ » Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:21 am

Bill, the log cabin republicans were organized to keep from going all our votes to one party. This year, they're baffled and betrayed by their republican compatriots. Kerry is indeed Catholic. But he's a prochoice Catholic. Bush, on the other hand, is an evangelical. I've met some real nice ones (and I'm not lumping the all together!!), but I've also gotten death threats from them. As it turns out, the Catholics in Oregon turned out and voted DOWN the antigay Ballot Measure 9. They remembered when the dominant religion had tried to legislate them into the background.

Rich, I am for slicing a lot of stuff too. Honestly, none of it would ever fly. For example, SS was designed to kick in at the natural life expectancy (!) and as you say, a net, when people more often worked till they couldn't anymore. Now people view it as a way to retire with supplemental income. They put in some time paying taxes (or not) and then they retire for a much longer period on the dole. I think the start age should be pushed back. Maybe something will be there for me then.

Prescription drug bennies are another thing I don't follow. Some are crucial; some are just a trade (force people to use older stuff, and then they suffer more costly complications; the result can be a wash). A lot of the new stuff is completely incremental. The number one prescribed BP med is norvasc, and that stuff has a lot LESS data for it than most we could use (hctz: the best data, pennies a month; generic betablockers and ace inhibitors also good data and cheap--norvasc is 60 bucks a month!) and each med, while advisable, isn't crucial, but rather knocks down an event rate a few percent. Plavix is better than aspirin (statistically significant!) and the fact is the first big trial to trumpet this noted in the fine print you'd have to treat 200 people 2 years to prevent an event (but not a death). Again, the difference is 60 bucks to free. We have to actually make choices and that means cutting some corners. TAKE the stupid 3 times a day drug that's nearly free and save America a ton of cash. Sorry if it's inconvenient. And there has to be some way to say NO to freecare for illegals. It's a tough situation... but there are a dozen people at least at my hospital who snuck into the USA for healthcare and are passing the bill to you. It *****, but we don't fly dialysis into Nigeria, will we always start it when Nigeria flies here? SoCal ERs are crumpling under the stress.

The trouble tho, Rich, is that dumb crap has a life of its own. We had a thread on Moore giving out undies for votes. What do we call it when politicians give out millions in pork for votes instead of undies? Business as usual.

We should make government employees justify everything each year. We should put expiration dates on laws and write them so average people don't need to pay 500/hr to use the system. We need to make employees of the gov't understand its not their money and force em to pledge to spend cash as if it was their own. If you can push any of this thru, and sustain a papercut in the process, I promise to steal one of Kerry's purple hearts for you. Bush can give him a national guard achievement plaque for attendance in the top 98% of his unit to make up for the loss.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:59 pm

Kerry is indeed Catholic. But he's a prochoice Catholic

Ian, Ian, Ian... I've got you on this one.

Prochoice Catholic is an oxymoron.

Divorced (and remarried) Catholic also is an oxymoron. But if you pay the right people in the Catholic Church, you can get your marriage "annulled." That by the way creates a situation where Kerry's kids are considered illegitimate in the eyes of the church. Kerry himself joked about the number of Catholic politicians with annulled marriages, and the bulk of them living in Massachusettes.

This is vintage Kerry. I'm sorry, Ian, you can't have it both ways. Kerry would like to, but he can't. He's either prochoice or he is Catholic. He's either divorced and remarried or he is Catholic. He doesn't have the spine to pick a position and stick with it.

When I was eighteen, I was coming out of a Catholic mass with my parents. Just before the end of the service, the priest told the parishioners to sign a petition against abortion that was going to our local representative. On the way out, someone thrust the petition in front of me. I quietly said "No thank you." That wasn't good enough. This gentleman insisted on stopping me, and making a scene that was designed to embarass both me and my parents.

The Catholic Church is unequivocal on the subject of abortion. Several Catholic bishops have insisted that Kerry not receive communion because of his prochoice stance.

The difference between Kerry and me is that I choose to stand up for my beliefs rather than pretend to belong to a group that preaches dogma I don't share.

I used to be Catholic. Now I'm an American.

- George Carlin

I respect the Catholic Church because they take a stance on something and stick with it. And I am taking my own stance.

Meanwhile, Ian, many non-Catholic faiths have taken stances supporting gay rights.

Respect the Catholic Church, Ian. They deserve it. But don't think for a second that they are an ally in your quest to seek recognition for your union. And don't take the duplicitous babbling of a spineless politician. You never really know where you stand with someone who can't stick to his principles and take a stand on something.

- Bill

Gene DeMambro · Post by **Gene DeMambro** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:02 pm

Theresa Heinz Kerry has never released her tax returns. John Kerry's are available at the link I gave. Look at them yourself. Show me her tax returns or at least where the WSJ got their numbers. They didn't get them from any public source that I can find.

You know Bill, sometimes you confuse the hell out of people. On one hand you exclaim that you would tell the world it's none of their damn business if you were ever asked personal questions about who you slept with or whether you are gay or straight if you were ever a candidate. On the other hand, you wish to release the personal details about someone else's personal life, marriage and divorce for none other than sordid fascination?

Which is it?

Ms. Heinz Kerry can only give $2,000 to her husband's reelection campaign. So says the FEC. And there has been no indication she has done anything more than that.

Gene

RACastanet · Post by **RACastanet** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:06 pm

"They didn't get them from any public source that I can find."

Source: Club for Growth

Rich

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:09 pm

You know Bill, sometimes you confuse the hell out of people. On one hand you exclaim that you would tell the world it's none of their damn business if you were ever asked personal questions about who you slept with or whether you are gay or straight if you were ever a candidate. On the other hand, you wish to release the personal details about someone else's personal life, marriage and divorce for none other than sordid fascination?

Which is it?

I'm happy to address that, Gene.

You are a fan of the process of law. In a trial, a judge may rule that certain evidence related to character may be off limits. Off limits means off limits - for both parties.

However...

The second the defendant makes a statement like "I have an excellent reputation in my community!" well then all bets are off. What was once off limits is now fair game, because the defendant made character an issue.

Kerry made his reputation as a Catholic a centerpiece of his character. Fine... It's now fair game to examine that characteristic, is it not?

Gary Hart once challenged the media to check on his reputation as a philanderer. They happily obliged.

Bill Clinton's biggest mistake was getting on TV and telling the American people that he did not have sex with "that woman." If he had kept his mouth shut, then I would be 100% behind him. (I still think Kenneth Starr wasted our tax dollars.)

If you don't want your reputation to be the subject of debate, then don't bring the subject up.

I certainly would never brag about my own...

- Bill

Gene DeMambro · Post by **Gene DeMambro** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:15 pm

Bill,

You need to read up on Catholic orthodoxy.....

Got a problem with a person who doesn't take orders fro their church? Do you find something wrong with a person who actually gasp thinks for themselves on matters their church weighs in on?

But wasn't it you who proclaimed "Justice is Served" when the workman were taking away Roy Moore's Ten Commandments in Alabama?

So you're for a separation of church and state...except when your guy is in charge of the state?

Gene

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:24 pm

Gene

Where have we gone wrong with your education? Sigh...

Please visit my friend Mr. Jefferson's gravesite on Montecello. I don't know the exact quotes, but I can paraphrase them. He wanted to be known for three accomplishments (and one of them was NOT being POTUS).

* Signed the Declaration of Independence

* Founder of the University of Virginia

* Author of a bill on religious freedom.

Gene, Thomas Jefferson preached both freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion. I do not want my tax dollars paying for the ten commandments being up in a public facility. If I were of a faith that did not share these Judeochristian principles, I would be highly offended. If I were an athiest, I would be highly offended.

Meanwhile, I pay out of my OWN pocket to send my two boys to Christian schools. No tax dollars, thank you very much. In fact, I still have to pay the taxes that support the public shcools that I do not get the benefit of.

It isn't right, but that's the way it is. And those public schools better NOT be teaching any religion. That would make them no different than the madrasses we love to hate in the Middle East.

Is that clear enough for you, Gene?

And don't preach Roman Catholic doctrine to me. I did eight years time in parochial school.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:31 pm

Freedom of religion and religious practice is all about tolerance and inclusion. It is all about accepting the beliefs of those around us as being meaningful to them, and not forcing our own beliefs on them.

It is NOT about forcing a state religion.

It is NOT about telling the Catholic church what it can or cannot tell their practitioners. In the Roman Catholic Church, the pope has final say so on Catholic doctrine.

John Paul is unequivocal on his stance on abortion. Love it or hate it - at least the man took a stance. You don't have to like it. But you cannot call yourself a prochoice Catholic.

- Bill

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:54 pm

And those public schools better NOT be teaching any religion. That would make them no different than the madrasses we love to hate in the Middle East.

Amen Bill! I believe Kerry feels the same way.

Just curius.. how do you feel about vouchers? Is it OK to take public money to pay for private schools? I personally believe it's wrong. I'd like to see some form of tax break for parents footing the bill of their childrens' private education. Living here in the city my boy will have to go to school with kids from "the other side of the river" many whose parents are druggies and what ever else. Since I don't want him exposed to that crap, I can either send him to catholic school or buy a house in the county or one of the neighboring communities. (yep not very PC of me huh?)

Of course (correct me if I'm wrong) money for education is raised at a state level and has nothing to do with the fcederal gov't.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:14 pm

This is a contentious issue, Ben.

Everyone is cavalier about the ideal world until it's your kid going to that school with the druggies. You are ENTITLED to be selfish with your kids, Ben, and don't let the world preach to you. That is your job as a parent. Do not feel guilty. If all the world felt the same way that you did, there wouldn't be any problems. Alas a good deal of kids are coming from broken homes and homes where fathers never partook in the rearing of the child. It's a mess.

The philosophy espoused by Bush is somewhat of a libertarian one. Many people do not believe that government (federal, state, or local) can do a better job of educating their kids than private enterprise. Everyone - including you - has access to private schools IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT. I can afford it because I didn't start having kids until I was 38 and with a Ph.D. But many cannot.

The idea behind the voucher system is to give lower income families options where public schools are failing. It is a free market approach to failing government. The good news is that it gives options to poor families whose parents give a damn. The bad news is that children with neglectful parents end up being concentrated even further.

There is no perfect solution. Just pick your belief system and execute.

I personally would like to have my unused education tax dollars back. But it is what it is. This will not stop me from spending my money on private education as opposed to BMWs and vacations in Mexico (like my neighbors). These are my choices and priorities.

- Bill

Gene DeMambro · Post by **Gene DeMambro** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:40 pm

Divorced (and remarried) Catholic also is an oxymoron. But if you pay the right people in the Catholic Church, you can get your marriage "annulled." That by the way creates a situation where Kerry's kids are considered illegitimate in the eyes of the church.

Bill, Bill, Bill... I've got you on this one

An annullment is given by the Church after a tribunal rules that the reasons for a valid marriage never existed. Nothing is assumed and every fact used to rule in favor or to decline the annulment must be proven.

Kerry's kids being illegitmate? Where have we gone wrong with your education? Sigh...

Church law covers this situation very clearly and recognizes that children who were considered legitimate offspring are still so considered.

Like I suggested, you ought to bone up on your Church canon if you want to spew forth the right wing horsesh!t that Kerry's kid's are "illegitimate".

Kerry wants to be a good Catholic, and do what's right by the United States of America. Bush wants to be a President that makes everyone do what's right by his faith. Scary.....

Gene

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:16 pm

if you want to spew forth the right wing horsesh!t

There you go again, Gene.

I have been nice in the past. I have even tried to counter this behavior with humor.

I will be direct. This is meaningless, and reflects negatively more on you than it does on the target of your language. Additionally, it is offensive to the audience, and to the owner of the webpage. You are stepping down a slippery slope that gets us nowhere.

Is there anything you do not understand about my assertion?

Thanks for the bandwidth.

- Bill

Gene DeMambro · Post by **Gene DeMambro** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:51 pm

I await Panther to weigh in on the subject matter you raise. I await his guidance.

However, my original point remains:

No less than three times on this forum, in at least two threads, you and others would have us be influenced in our votes by utter, provable lies and distortions about Sen. Kerry put forth by supporters of the current President. And I'm calling you on it.

Is there anything you do not understand about this assertion?

You're welcome for the bandwidth.

Gene

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 7:05 pm

If your case were so obvious, then it wouldn't take profanity and insults to make it.

Have a nice day, Gene.

- Bill

Gene DeMambro · Post by **Gene DeMambro** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:08 am

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

- Hamlet (III, ii, 239)