What happened to the military??

[mikemurphy]

Bill Sensei,

You shouldn't really get the blood pressure up that much. I'm sure you can find a wonderful article to tell us all the dangers of that too. hmmm


<<Are you serious, Mike? What planet have YOU been living on since 9/11? Perhaps the planes that took off from Logan didn't affect your economy or any lives you knew like they did for all associated with the WTC in New York (and the international economic community) and the Pentagon in Virginia. Fine... But make sure you close Logan down. The rest of the country can't afford your cavalier attitude.>>

Gee, do you think that if we weren't sticking our noses, both corporate and political (one in the same for this administration) into everyone's businesses, would he have struck the US? Where is all the attacks from Bin Laden on Switzerland, Norway, Canada, China, etc., etc. The only attacks I hear about are on countries with expansive foreigan policies.

What the country CAN'T afford here Bill is the expense of over 1 billion dollars a week into these losing battles. Maybe to save money, we can shut down Virginia.


<<Did you bother to read the WSJ article I posted above for Justin? See the trail? It doesn't take a pattern-recognition genious to see how suicide bombings and beheadings in Iraq are conntected with a fascist cult we invaded in Taliban Afghanistan that wants Western Civilization as we know it to be exterminated.>>

I guess the question here would be who cares? If we weren't there, why would we care if someone got beheaded or there was another suicide bombing? Sorry to sound so cold, but that's just the way it is. We care because they are happening to Americans. And when did the WSJ corner the market on the end-all in journalism? By point was that the government's report has no such connection. End of story.

<<It doesn't take a genius to realize that these Jew-hating fascists want to reestablish the extermination of Jews in Israel. (And yes, the Palistinian/Israeli problem is another one that needs to be handled yesterday). >>

What's wrong with Fascism? I don't like the Jew-hating part, but if the people are happy with a Fascist government, then so be it. It is not our job to change that. BTW, it seems to me that you could argue that the Arab-hating Jews in Israel would love to see the area rid of Arabs. Are you just making that point because the US is allied with Israel?

<<You and Justin can keep your heads in the ground, but I'm not. You can flog yourself for all our moral transgressions that brought all this hate down upon us, but I'm looking hate in the eye and saying "No!" >>

No, you're taking the word of a government that has constantly lied to you, has toppled governments without cause or justification, and continues to steer this country down the road of economic ruin. Then you'll see chaos. I'd say, take your head out of the sand and look what is going on. If you like it, then grab a gun and put your money where your mouth is. As this bleeding heart liberal you claim I am, I'd grab a gun in a second if my country is threatened, but as a good red-blooded American citizen, I choose not to fight the battle which is not mine and let my government know that.

Now I know that you are too old to go Bill, but I would hate to see your son have to go, or mine. There are better battles to be fought.


<<We've been in it waist deep since before the Clinton administration. You can choose to deal with it, or ignore it and let it fester and grow.>>

No Bill, you can get away from it.

<<One way or another, there's going to be some serious loss of American lives. Me? I'd prefer to see them shoot at and blow up young men who are trained and willing to shoot back.>>

There doesn't have to be any loss of US lives here, and these young men you so callously throw out in the open, yeah have how much training???? How many years of Uechi training do you consider enough to feel comfortable in? I know of boys almost right out of boot camp going, or Weekend Warriors from the National Guard who are out there. Long story short, they are just boys regardless of how willing they are to shoot back.


<<It's not about being macho; it's about national security.>>

Bill it's foreign policy 101. We can't get out because of the bad rap we'd get in the international community. We are too concerned with our image.


<<You are fighting a 20th century war, Mike. This is not a 20th century enemy.>>

COOL, let's arm our guys with rocks and sticks and give them extensive 2 month training, put a little color on the old Irish tan and send them over.


<<* How many cruise missles have we already lobbed in Afghanistan and Iraq, trying to take out Bin Laden and Hussein? Which one of them killed the bad guy? (I'll give you a hint - they BOTH are still alive.) >>

And we are still in both locations too.

<<* Where is Osama now? (I'll give you a hint. Cruise missles don't penetrate enough earth to kill people hiding in caves and bunkers. And Afghanistan has thousands of them.) >>

How do you know he's in the ground? He could be sitting in a highrise in Manhatten right now and you wouldn't know it. Let's not pretend he's places we don't know.


<<* What did it take finally to get Saddam Hussein? >>

Bribing some Iraqis.

<<* What did it take to get Uday and Kusay Hussein? >>

Bribing some Iraqis.

<<* Zarqawi was regularly beheading innocent civilians for our viewing pleasure for months. When I discussed the beheading of one civilian, it was so gruesome that even the Canadians were calling ME brutal. What did it take to flush him out of insurgent-infested Fallujah? >>

Did we capture him yet? I didn't hear about it.

<<* We found the killing rooms and the training camps in Fallujah. Why didn't we just lob one of those nifty cruise missles in there to take him, the killing room, the bomb-making garages, and the training rooms out? (I'll give you a hint. This was happening in the CITY of Fallujah.) >>

Are you talking about the prison?

<<* Where were most of the weapons stored in Fallujah? (I'll give you a hint. It starts with the letter "mosques." And let's not forget the letter "schools.") So, what's it going to look like on CNN when you lob a cruise missle over there to take out the weapons? >>

Are you talking about all those weapons of mass destruction again?

Hmm... (I'll just leave this as a quote by us both)


<<Mr. Secretary... You're fired! >>

Good, maybe they'll higher someone with a little more experience, like an automobile executive. Wait, that was already done. Get back to you on this one.

<<This is an enemy without borders, Mike. This is an enemy without a standing army. This is an enemy that hates civilization as we know it.>>

Which civilizations does it hate? Once again, they have left much of the known world alone in their terrorism. It seems as if they only target certain countries.

<<The vast majority of Iraqis want to vote and want us the hell out of Iraq. So do we.>>

This is where I get a good laugh. You say something we both kind of agree on (they want us out), but then you say in the same statement "so do we." Where is the proof in that? Everything Bush has done and said is contrary to that remark.

<<But a stable, representational government in Iraq, whether they be pro- or anti-American, is not in the interest of this loose band of terrorists. They want civil war and chaos.>>

They'll get it there or somewhere else. Why do you think for one instance that changing Iraqs political being will somehow alter how these terrorists behave or operate? It won't.

<< That's how they operated so well and for so long in Afghanistan, and Clinton wasn't able to do a damn thing about it. That's what they want in Iraq, a place that is as promising as any to be the next Afghanistan. History is on their side, and we need to remember it. We (the superpowers) generally run when the going gets a little dirty. Then they (those that thrive in this chaos) step in and have some fun. >>

You seem to think there is some remarkable turnover in Afghanistan? Are the terrorists still operating out of there? Yes they are, AND we have already pulled out many of our men and equipment there. You can claim victory in the election there if you wish, but I think that a couple months is still early, and the Afghanis, US, and Pakistan have not finished the job yet. How long before we say forget it, and Pakistan closes up the border again?


<<This is exactly what the terrorists know and want, Mike. Read bin Laden's own work!!! And once we leave, we'll get bitten in the ass on another day so hard that you or I may not be around to talk about it. >>

I say to you again Bill because you never address this issue. Do you think that is going to stop? Do you think that by turning Iraq around at the cost of billions of dollars and thousands of lives that terrorism is going to stop in the US? Who's got their head in the sand here?

<<That's funny, Mike. How would you characterize Iraq today? A nice place to get a cup of Starbucks while children are flying kites? And what will that place be like if the only security they know today is gone? >>

I'd characterize it by saying it's a place I don't want to go. It's a place where it's NOT THE JOB OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA to be their security force. Let the Arabs police the Arabs.

<<Remember - for better or for worse, Rumsfield disbanded their military and police force. It was part of the "de-Baathification" of Iraq. Sun Tzu would frown on that (and I do as well) but it's now a done deal. >>

Great job!!! (golf claps all around)


<<If the police department disbands in Richmond, you'd bet your sweet ass there would be chaos here. And guess what? I know a few "West Enders" who would not be unprepared...>>

Just goes to show you the type of people living in Richmond these days



<<I don't care what Michael Moore or the French think, Mike. The right thing to do is help the Iraqis build a representational government. Give them elections ON TIME - period. That's what their leaders have asked for, and that's what we'll give them. >>

First of all, don't put me in the either one of those categories. I'm not a big MM fan, and I can't run fast enough to stay with the French. It seems like you have this "right" thing cornered. You seem to take just what the government is saying and make it gospel. Good for you. I'm sure you'd love it if someone came into your house and started telling you how to do everything and they weren't going to leave until you got it just the way they want it. We'll sure give it to them, I have no doubts on that at all, but whether it is "right" for us to do it, you'll have to get a bigger halo to prove that to me.


<<Wouldn't it be interesting if they got a greater percentage voting than we did in our last presidential election... >>

I wonder how many dead iraqis are allowed to vote????




<<Pardon me for pulling this out of my pocket but... You liberals really are into the guilt thing, aren't you? Want some confession?>>

US liberals? I'm more of a moderate, but I'll play. I really don't try to do a guilt thing, but with Bush as Pres., it's too easy. BTW, speaking of guilt, have you read any of your posts for the last 100 years????? Talk about guilt trips. You could be my mother! Wait, that would only be legal in Alabama.

<<Call what exists today "Fred" if it makes you feel better. But I'm not playing the liberal guilt exercise. I'm too busy concerning myself with the remnants of the Taliban al qaeda. Sorry to confuse you with the facts I posted above... >>

See above.

<<And no, killing bin Laden will not make it all go away.>>

Why are we trying so hard to do it then?

<<Oh and nice try but... I'm not biting on your reference to The Moral Majority. That's Fallwell's group, in case you didn't remember. He's over here in Lynchburg, Virginia. And Ian and I have already discussed Evangelicals in the Republican tent. Go fight that battle there... >>

Lynchburg, Richmond, only a bible toss away.

<<Can you say "Libertarian"?>>

You? A Libertarian? You have a lot of explaining to the party hierarchy then with arguments like this.

Cya at church!

mike

[Bill Glasheen]

You shouldn't really get the blood pressure up that much.

120/60 without drugs, Mike. Measured just last Saturday. You mistake passion for pathology. But that's OK; you can ignore my passion all you want...

Where is all the attacks from Bin Laden on Switzerland, Norway, Canada, China, etc., etc. The only attacks I hear about are on countries with expansive foreigan policies.

More liberal guilt, Mike. Let's all flog ourselves for being a superpower. Let's feel bad about kicking economic butt in the world.

NOT!!!

By the way, please explain why Islamofascists are gang-raping black Africaners in Sudan, Mike, and otherwise engaging in ethnic cleansing. Did they "ask for it?"




Did Russian school children "Ask for it?"




Did Dublin-born charity worker Margaret Hassan "Ask for it?" You know how expansive those Irish are...




How about this civilian contractor. Did he deserve to have his head slowly sawed off for Zarqawi's political gain and the world's voyeristic horror?




I don't know, Mike. I don't see any expansionists here. Maybe I'm blind.

What the country CAN'T afford here Bill is the expense of over 1 billion dollars a week into these losing battles. Maybe to save money, we can shut down Virginia.

The only thing we're losing in Iraq is tolerance for what you see above, Mike. And my freedom is priceless.

What's wrong with Fascism? I don't like the Jew-hating part, but if the people are happy with a Fascist government, then so be it.

Tell me what there is to be "happy" about in the pictures above, Mike.

No, you're taking the word of a government that has constantly lied to you, has toppled governments without cause or justification, and continues to steer this country down the road of economic ruin.

The number 1 economy in the world, right Mike? Our democracy with our free, liberal press, right Mike?

Got it!

Now I know that you are too old to go Bill, but I would hate to see your son have to go, or mine. There are better battles to be fought.

I am "old enough", Mike, to have fought for and won the right not to be drafted. Remember the "Find the cost of freedom" lyrics I quoted earlier?

Your sons and mine will "go" if they choose to do so, and our country needs them.

There doesn't have to be any loss of US lives here

You're over 3000 lives too late... More to come if al qaeda has its way.

I visited the WTC and the Pentagon when ruined, Mike. Did you? It's a sight I'll never forget.

Bill it's foreign policy 101. We can't get out because of the bad rap we'd get in the international community. We are too concerned with our image.

You mean the same "international community" (France, Russia, Germany, China, UN officials) that were on the take in Iraq in the "oil-for-food" program? All while Saddam fired at our planes protecting the no-fly zones and paid the families of Palestinian suicide bombers? The same program that starved Iraqi citizens and helped Saddam build palaces and refortify his military?

No thanks...

Give me the coalition "international community" any day. We'll call that Foreign Policy 102.


Oh, and I'm waiting for evidence that you bothered to read the article I referenced above about the changes in our military strategy. Sad...

They'll get it there or somewhere else. Why do you think for one instance that changing Iraqs political being will somehow alter how these terrorists behave or operate? It won't.

That's what they said about The Third Reich. And so country after country took it in the tush. Finally a few countries (Great Britain and the U.S. among others) stood up to fascism. The rest is history.

You seem to think there is some remarkable turnover in Afghanistan? Are the terrorists still operating out of there? Yes they are, AND we have already pulled out many of our men and equipment there. You can claim victory in the election there if you wish, but I think that a couple months is still early, and the Afghanis, US, and Pakistan have not finished the job yet. How long before we say forget it, and Pakistan closes up the border again?

I knew you wouldn't be able to acknowledge the successes there. It doesn't fit with the evil, greedy, corporate, expansive, hapless U.S. Empire paradigm.

Do you think that is going to stop? Do you think that by turning Iraq around at the cost of billions of dollars and thousands of lives that terrorism is going to stop in the US? Who's got their head in the sand here?

Certainly not me, Mike. I've got my eyes on the evil and I'm not taking it off until it is stopped. Surrendering to it is not an option.

Freedom needs to be defended 365 days of the year, Mike. It can never be taken for granted.

Let the Arabs police the Arabs.

So we let the U.S. police the Canadians? We all look alike, after all.

Let the Iraqis police the Iraqis. Care to support the U.S. effort to teach them how?

I'm sure you'd love it if someone came into your house and started telling you how to do everything and they weren't going to leave until you got it just the way they want it.

I'm married, Mike. It's my job...

I wonder how many dead iraqis are allowed to vote????

For Saddam? For Uday? For Kusay? Don't worry, they took care of the ones who didn't want to. Care to tour the mass graves of the Shia? The corpses of the gassed Kurds?

Lynchburg, Richmond, only a bible toss away.

Rather provincial, wouldn't you say? I've visted Newton, South Boston, Tewksbury, Cape Cod, Framingham, Waltham, Boston, etc. Mike. Care to come to Virginia some time and see how ridiculous your statement is? Care to learn a bit about the state that is the birthplace of more U.S. presidents than any other? The birthplace of Jeffersonian democracy? Centers of liberal education? The suburbs of our nation's capital? The coal mining communities in the southwest? The beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains? Virginia Beach, the largest tourest city in the nation?

Lynchburg and Charlottesville are half an hour away from each other on Route 29, Mike. One city goes to bed at 6 PM on Saturday evenings. The other never sleeps. But of course you knew that...

You? A Libertarian?

I'm a fiscal conservative, and want to be left alone on the social front. You give that a label...

Merry Christmas, and go throw some tea in the Boston harbor for me. Give all the gang my very best.

- Bill

[RACastanet]

What bill said!

Rich

[mikemurphy]

Bill Sensei,

I'm glad about the blood pressure...truely! And I would never ignore or underestimate your passion.

<<120/60 without drugs, Mike. Measured just last Saturday. You mistake passion for pathology. But that's OK; you can ignore my passion all you want...>>

<<More liberal guilt, Mike. Let's all flog ourselves for being a superpower. Let's feel bad about kicking economic butt in the world.>>

Not liberal or guilt speaking here Bill. Just because one has the power doesn't mean they have to use it. Especially on people not their equal in that arena. I see it all the time in the high school halls.


<<By the way, please explain why Islamofascists are gang-raping black Africaners in Sudan, Mike, and otherwise engaging in ethnic cleansing. Did they "ask for it?" >>

Does anyone ask for it? Does it matter why and what they believe in? Why do US personal dehumanize Iraqi prisoners or war? Something that is just as bad in their eyes? Oh, that's ok because we are the all rightious and it was done with the red, white, and blue stamp of approval.


<<Did Russian school children "Ask for it?" >>

Irrevelent and worthy of a different thread if you care to start one. The same with Irish terrorism

<<How about this civilian contractor. Did he deserve to have his head slowly sawed off for Zarqawi's political gain and the world's voyeristic horror? >>

Gee, let's see? Working in a war zone for profit? Did he know the risks? I don't advocate what was done, but I'll be damned if I feel sorry for any non-military person who is there to make a quick buck. They do know the danger and what could happen to them if caught.


<<I don't know, Mike. I don't see any expansionists here. Maybe I'm blind.>>

That's because you're looking through Bush-colored glasses.

<<The only thing we're losing in Iraq is tolerance for what you see above, Mike. And my freedom is priceless.>>

Once again Bill, you seem to relate the storming of a third-world nation, subjugation of its people, and the raping of its natural resources as a means of defending your precious freedom. Perhaps you should live over there for a while and see if you agree from their perspective.

<<Tell me what there is to be "happy" about in the pictures above, Mike.>>

Oh stop it. You don't have to Fascist to practice totalitarianism. Isn't it just as barbaric to allow people in the US to starve to death, freeze to death, and die because they can't get the proper medical treatment because they are uninsured? Nah, that's just not pretty enough to get the front page of any newspaper or TV segment, and hell, where's the military fun in that? But, I guess you don't have any of those problems in Virginia behing those glasses mentioned above.


<<The number 1 economy in the world, right Mike? Our democracy with our free, liberal press, right Mike? >>

Oh, I get it. Just because we are the number 1 economy in the world, then the government has this carte blanche on everything.

<<Got it! >>

No, no it's me that's got it now.


<<I am "old enough", Mike, to have fought for and won the right not to be drafted.>>

So what you are saying is that you'd rather have someone else fight the fight, so long as you're not forced to?

<<Your sons and mine will "go" if they choose to do so, and our country needs them.>>

Let's hope it's for a war that really means something to this country and not to line someone's pocket.


<<You're over 3000 lives too late... More to come if al qaeda has its way.>>

My point exactly Bill, but you still think that by taking over Iraq al qaeda will cease to exist. Wake up Bill, it won't happen.

<<I visited the WTC and the Pentagon when ruined, Mike. Did you? It's a sight I'll never forget. >>

Yeah, I visited ground zero and watched it live on TV when it happened. I've also visited the Wall in DC and Gettysburg. They all give me the same feeling here, but not the one you seem to get.


<<You mean the same "international community" (France, Russia, Germany, China, UN officials) that were on the take in Iraq in the "oil-for-food" program? All while Saddam fired at our planes protecting the no-fly zones and paid the families of Palestinian suicide bombers? The same program that starved Iraqi citizens and helped Saddam build palaces and refortify his military? >>

That same one. Why then, are we so afraid to have them criticize us? I don't get it.


<<Give me the coalition "international community" any day. We'll call that Foreign Policy 102. >>

Oh, that's right, the ever fabulous and mystical "coalition" of the US, England, and Poland. That's WITHOUT the UN's backing right? Dobya couldn't even match his old man on this one. That's saying something. With a coalition like that, I say why stop there? Let's go after all those other Fascist, commie bastards like N. Korea, China, Cuba, Vietnam (again, but this time we have Poland on our side). There is no stopping us now!


<<Oh, and I'm waiting for evidence that you bothered to read the article I referenced above about the changes in our military strategy. Sad... >>

No, it's not sad, just not worthy of this discussion.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mike They'll get it there or somewhere else. Why do you think for one instance that changing Iraqs political being will somehow alter how these terrorists behave or operate? It won't.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


<<That's what they said about The Third Reich. And so country after country took it in the tush. Finally a few countries (Great Britain and the U.S. among others) stood up to fascism. The rest is history. >>

Please, if you are going to use history, make it relevent.


<<I knew you wouldn't be able to acknowledge the successes there. It doesn't fit with the evil, greedy, corporate, expansive, hapless U.S. Empire paradigm.>>

Where is the victory Bill and I'll acknowledge it. I promise!


<<Certainly not me, Mike. I've got my eyes on the evil and I'm not taking it off until it is stopped. Surrendering to it is not an option. >>

Then cast your glance a little north of you and start looking. If you think everything that comes out of their collective gaping maw is the truth, then you've already surrendered.


<<Freedom needs to be defended 365 days of the year, Mike. It can never be taken for granted. >>

Just where is our freedom at risk here Bill? Did you not go to work after 9/11? Stop practicing your Uechi? Stop buying you evironmentally safe automobiles? Your freedom is not at risk then or now and it's not taken for granted. I just don't like people using the word freedom as a tool for what it's not.



<<So we let the U.S. police the Canadians? We all look alike, after all. >>

Ooh, wave the bloody shirt huh? Do the Canadians have a problem we should know about? They seem to do it right on a lot of points. Maybe they should be policing us a little?

<<Let the Iraqis police the Iraqis. Care to support the U.S. effort to teach them how?>>

Yes, let's make them good quasi-Americans. A little brain-washing never hurt anyone. Or has it? And BTW, they are doing such a great job at it too. I wish they could teach our police at home a little of that stuff.

<<I'm married, Mike. It's my job... >>

Finally, something we both agree on


<<For Saddam? For Uday? For Kusay? Don't worry, they took care of the ones who didn't want to. Care to tour the mass graves of the Shia? The corpses of the gassed Kurds? >>

I'm talking about the new and improved elections and you know it.


<<Rather provincial, wouldn't you say? I've visted Newton, South Boston, Tewksbury, Cape Cod, Framingham, Waltham, Boston, etc. Mike. Care to come to Virginia some time and see how ridiculous your statement is?>>

Been there, done that!

<<Care to learn a bit about the state that is the birthplace of more U.S. presidents than any other?>>

Do you really need the history lesson as to why?

<<The birthplace of Jeffersonian democracy?>>

I know, I know, because Jefferson live there???


<<Centers of liberal education?>>

You haven't done away with them yet? Shame of you conservatives!

<<The suburbs of our nation's capital?>>

I thought the suburb of the DC was one of the country's worst slums? Has it changed since I've last been there?

<<The coal mining communities in the southwest?>>

Oh, lovely coal, how I miss that smell.....

<<The beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains?>>

Wonderful, backward living Appalachia. How scenic.

<<Virginia Beach, the largest tourest city in the nation? >>

Did Orlando give up that distinction already? Although I agree with you the girls are much better in VA Beach


<<Lynchburg and Charlottesville are half an hour away from each other on Route 29, Mike. One city goes to bed at 6 PM on Saturday evenings. The other never sleeps. But of course you knew that... >>

Both stops on my next National Lampoon Family Vacation. If I could only find the keys to my family truckster.

<<I'm a fiscal conservative, and want to be left alone on the social front. You give that a label... >>

I knew you weren't a Libertarian. That would be way too easy.

<<Merry Christmas, and go throw some tea in the Boston harbor for me. Give all the gang my very best. >>

You too Bill to yours and the rest! (you guys didn't really do anything other than Yorktown during the Revolution did you???

mike

- Bill

[mikemurphy]

What Mike said!

Mike

[Bill Glasheen]

It's fun listening to you, Mike. At least your point of view is clear. No changing it, for sure.

Just because one has the power doesn't mean they have to use it.

And just because one can kick the crap out of someone doesn't mean one shouldn't do so before having it done to them or see it done to someone else first. But I won't change your mind about U.S. as bully, so continue to feel badly for the both of us.

<<Did Russian school children "Ask for it?" >>

Irrevelent and worthy of a different thread if you care to start one. The same with Irish terrorism

Wrong, Mike. It has everything to do with the thread. Follow the al qaeda connection.

Chechen terrorists follow Al-Qaeda training manual

Gee, let's see? Working in a war zone for profit? Did he know the risks? I don't advocate what was done, but I'll be damned if I feel sorry for any non-military person who is there to make a quick buck. They do know the danger and what could happen to them if caught.

OK, so you think Nick Berg "asked for it" then, right? That evil man who wants to pay his bills.... The nerve of him not being part of some society where all is provided by the government instead. I mean really... He should have gotten a real job like yours, Mike!

So now that we've written him off, what's the status of Margaret Hassan?


Is she close enough for sainthood for you? After all, she was the director of Care International's operation in Iraq, and married to an Iraqi. Did she deserve to have her body mutilated and then killed for effect by al qaeda in Iraq?

Maybe I should just take your word for it that this Dublin-born charity worker was just another "Irish terrorist." Maybe she DID "ask for it" after all...



BTW, isn't it great when your work gets on TeeVee so fast?

Oh and just in case you didn't read the article I posted above, Zarqawi was trained in chemical and biological weapons in Afghanistan by al qaeda, and arrived in Iraq long before the U.S. was ever there. But let's not confuse ourselves with these details. Should we reserve those details for another thread as well?

Once again Bill, you seem to relate the storming of a third-world nation, subjugation of its people, and the raping of its natural resources as a means of defending your precious freedom. Perhaps you should live over there for a while and see if you agree from their perspective.

Yep... Glad my SUV tank is full now!

What? You didn't get YOUR oil shipment, Mike? What about your quota of Iraqi love slaves?

Boy, Santa wasn't very nice to you this year. Maybe you were bad and voted for the wrong man...

<<I am "old enough", Mike, to have fought for and won the right not to be drafted.>>

So what you are saying is that you'd rather have someone else fight the fight, so long as you're not forced to?

When I was a kid, I wanted to play for the Boston Red Sox. Instead what I found is that I had talents that I have subsequently taken advantage of first in academic research (check my publications in the 1980s and 1990s) and then doing health services research and product development in the private sector.

I still hit balls in the batting cage. Oh, and I've been doing martial arts since 1972. But no thanks on the war...I like my day job.

BTW, I missed the draft in Vietnam by one year. My draft number was 19. I was a gonner...but then the war ended. Les jeux sont fait!

You keep forgetting, Mike. YOU'RE the one that loves all these governments with central planning. I like an economy where individuals have choices, and the free market rules.

you still think that by taking over Iraq al qaeda will cease to exist

You're getting confused again, Mike, between your strawman and the facts.

Why then, are we so afraid to have them criticize us?

I'm never afraid to have France, Germany, Russia, China, and Koffee Annan criticize us, Mike. In fact I find it pretty funy - particularly in light of all the documents we found on them in Iraq.

Yes, Mike, they were very, very bad. Santa won't be sending them any oil credits for Christmas...

Oh, that's right, the ever fabulous and mystical "coalition" of the US, England, and Poland. That's WITHOUT the UN's backing right?

So you want to piss on Britain, Poland, Australia, Bulgaria, and other allies that stuck by us? And reward those who were f***ing us over behind our backs? I'm glad I skipped straight over to Foreigh Policy 102...

<<The suburbs of our nation's capital?>>

I thought the suburb of the DC was one of the country's worst slums? Has it changed since I've last been there?

Where the hell did YOU go, Mike?

Ever heard of Alexandria? Arlington? Falls Church? Loudon County? You're a teacher, Mike. Check out their average SAT scores. Bet you a dinner of your choice that those scores (or any other standardized tests) kick the crap out of the school district in which you teach.

Check out the average income. Bet you another dinner...

Check out the value of the average family home. Bet you another dinner...

I like sashimi, by the way. You can take me out to Osaka restaurant next time you do one of those many visits to Virginia.

<<The beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains?>>

Wonderful, backward living Appalachia. How scenic.

It hurts me to see you embarass yourself so badly, Mike.

you guys didn't really do anything other than Yorktown during the Revolution did you???

Hey, it was you guys that started all the trouble. It took Virginians and Virginia to straighten it all out.

But don't confuse yourself with more of these facts...

- Bill

[RACastanet]

Bill said: "I mean really... He should have gotten a real job like yours, Mike!"


Mike must be an English teacher:

"Good, maybe they'll higher someone with a little more experience"

I wonder how you higher someone to do a job. Must be local dialect.

Rich

[IJ]

"Isn't it just as barbaric to allow people in the US to starve to death, freeze to death, and die because they can't get the proper medical treatment because they are uninsured?"

No, because we don't. Actually, if you come to any hospital for any reason whether you're homeless, uninsured, violent, mean, from jail, or an illegal immigrant, that hospital is required to provide ncessary care and can't send you out untreated or to an unsafe situation. Of the last 8 patients I saw, one was a homeless drug user who's now paralyzed by his habit and will be cared for 24-7 at our expense. Another was an uninsured drug user who got treated for related infections. Another was homeless and was discharged to a shelter. Three more are awaiting emergency funding for placement at some facility (75 year old and homeless, unable to care for self; 60 and neurologically injured, unable to care for self; schizophrenic who needs 6 weeks of antibiotics), and another came from jail and has been hospitalized for weeks for his infections. None go anywhere until it's safe.

You want to compare us to states that forbade medical care to women unless by women doctors whose education they forbade? And used relief money for palaces while kids starved? Go ahead, but the problem exists only in your noodle. I have problems with our police action in Iraq, but I'm not crazy enough to believe our system's not orders of magnitude better.

PS who's raping natural resources? Iraqhas pumped oil before we arrived; far as I know, Afghanistan has rocks and heroin, and we need neither here.

[Bill Glasheen]

Thank you, Ian, for being there for others on Christmas. In my book, this is the true meaning.

- Bill

[RACastanet]

Nice response Ian. I expected you to pick up on that statement. VCU Medical Center in Richmond continually runs in the red by providing the same services you mention.

Mike must be referring to what goes on in his neighborhood.

The Bush admin just released an additional $100 million in grants for fuel and heating for the needy.

In Richmond the power company sponsers heat share and matches gifts to help keep the power on in low income housing. In fact, VA Power will not cut off someones heat because of non payment in the winter, another big write down that we support as customers.

Sure glad I live in Richmond.

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

Mike

Since you appear to be geographically challenged, I'm providing you with a map that shows the three main Virginia suburbs of DC: Falls Church, Arlington, and Alexandria.




Here are the data on these "slums." (Source: City-Data.com)


Falls Church

For population 25 years and over in Falls Church
* High school or higher: 95.9%
* Bachelor's degree or higher: 63.7%
* Graduate or professional degree: 33.8%
* Unemployed: 2.9%

Median household income: $74,924 (year 2000)

Median house value: $277,100 (year 2000)


Arlington

For population 25 years and over in Arlington
* High school or higher: 87.8%
* Bachelor's degree or higher: 60.2%
* Graduate or professional degree: 30.6%
* Unemployed: 2.8%

Median household income: $63,001 (year 2000)

Median house value: $262,400 (year 2000)


Alexandria

For population 25 years and over in Alexandria
* High school or higher: 86.8%
* Bachelor's degree or higher: 54.3%
* Graduate or professional degree: 24.8%
* Unemployed: 3.2%

Median household income: $56,054 (year 2000)

Median house value: $252,800 (year 2000)


You can look up the stats of your school district and/or home here. (This is the identical source, BTW, so you can do an apples-to-apples comparison).

- Bill

[RACastanet]

Another note... The violent crime rate in the VA suburbs Bill noted, literally across the city line from a totatly gun banning DC run by Dems, is about one tenth of DC's.

There is a lot to be said for living in an 'open carry', 'shall issue' RED state.

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

Here's a home in the Blue Ridge mountains, Mike.

http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lg6e/album/ ... acet.1.jpg

I hear it won a few architectural awards.

They also tell me that a "mountain idiot" resident of that home wrote a document that you might find familiar...

- Bill

[RACastanet]

I'm not a 'Jeffersonian' as I believe Bill is (I do admit I love that 'hillbilly's' home), but a Federalist in the mold of Madison. Oh yes... he is another Virginian from the hills of Central VA..

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

Yea, another hillbilly home...



This is the walkway to the outhouse.



- Bill