contrary to popular belief

[Panther]

Why, most people reading the forums today, were shocked when I first introduced "fight or flight" [the chemical cocktail]

Never even knew it existed, never mentioned it to students, not until after we began discussing it here.

And it was amazing to see the folks come out of the woodwork. There are LOTS of folks that have gone through that. That instant of panic or near panic... of "pee-your-pants" or "go medieval"...

And the other thing that relates to this thread (IMNSHO) is the fact that win, lose or draw, those folks all ended up with some form of PTSD that they had to get through. Maybe just a little, maybe pretty severe, but a documentable form of PTSD regardless.

As was said earlier, when the hitting stops, the real battle starts... the PTSD "mental" battle.

There are folks who really take the time to discuss this with their students. But, I have to tell you that I've seen people complain in a dojo when the sensei (who knew his stuff inside and out) tried to discuss this aspect of self-defense. All they wanted was to... do some kata, do some kumite, do some conditioning, do some bunkai and feel good walking around in "Condition White".

[Mills75]

Well in my humble belief I feel Bill Glasheen is right on the money with all of this and I think it was fair to ask what the topic of the discussion was because it was swaying into the political arena and reasons for a war when it seems to me that the topic is about the effects of trauma on an individual and not the justification of war.I realize this is a very sensitive issue as it deserves to be.But i think Bill says it all on topic and on point when he posted the Russert and Kerry interview and showed in Mr. Kerry's own words that his emotional state affected his words at that time greatly and looking back on it now he says there are things he would do or say differently or not as strongly.I also echo what Bill says about giving a sincere ear to someone in need while realizing they have been through great trauma that effects the way they view things presently.and only through time will we come to know where this brave person chooses to place these events in his life and how he wishes to sort them out..I think it would be truly unfair to this person to take his words as his final position and resting place for these events as it is extremely soon after this trying experience.

[Mills75]

Please forgive me and i do not wish to be offensive in any way shape or form to make that abundantly clear.but lets really think about what these soldiers hear and see and what they are fed quite alot of...People saying your mission is false and this is not worth it and we are in the wrong place..now i ask you what kind of message does that send to you if you were involved in this war? is it saying you as a soldier killed people for false reasons possibly? these deaths are not justified so therefore you soldier are guilty?
if i was involved i might start feeling this way too if multitudes of people basically tell me i was involved in something wrong and unjust every single day..instead of trying to justify a war that we are already in like it or not why not try to keep our soldiers from feeling this pain by offering them our love and not our skeptical viewpoints.
if you're constantly told you're bad by association then yes one might start feeling this unwarranted guilt in my view..
see what i mean it's bad therefore i'm bad thinking may effect these kids..these soldiers in my view need to know whatever you feel about this darn war you're good no matter what and guilt free my friend..i guess when we sit here it's easy to talk about killing being that we don't have to do it..i think when you're at war like it or not we have to send them messages supporting not only them but the things they do..

thanks and sorry it's not meant to offend just how i see it..

[Tokezu]

Panther-san,

He thinks it's coming and not too far away. He mentioned that he sold his house and just bought a secluded spot waaaaaaay out in the woods "somewhere".

Very interesting. I just did EXACTLY the same thing... Bought a farmhouse on property that is very secluded, in the woods, with an independent source of heat (wood), water, food....everything focused on being able to survive the crash.

I've got a 24 month transition plan. Then I am GONE. C YA!

Scary. Hope I am wrong. Don't think I am.

DLF

[mikemurphy]

Thank you Van Sensei!

mike

[Chris H.]

Bill and anyone else interested. There is an exellent article in Journal of Asian Martial Arts about Russian Systema. The article has a section on Stimulus Responce Training and how the military uses it to bypass a humans aversion to hurting its own species.With quote's from the book ON Killing by Grossman and other experts in the field it is a very interesting read. I have seen first hand what PTSD does to a family. From my Grandfather's in WWII and Korean War, my Uncle returning from Vietnam and friends in the Gulf War and over in Iraq. I have witnessed everything from depression to substance abuse. We as family and friends owe it to all of them to be their support when they need it most wether we believe in what they are doing or have done.

[Bill Glasheen]

Chris

Good find. I started a thread on my forum discussing that. I may or may not expound on it; I'm still digesting all that was said in the article.

The author brings in a whole lot of modern research (Grossman, LeDoux, etc.) to explain how Systema can teach people to access "high road" abilities for these Russian Special Forces warriors. Very, very interesting! Others (such as Darren Lauer) have alluded to some of this in their own way.

What also intrigued me about the article is seeing certain applications that look a lot like my own personal interpretation of Uechi Seisan movements. (and different from the standard Okinawan bunkai) Always cool when you can get cross validation like that.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Chris

See The slow, high road. And in the first post, you see a picture of the front of that issue of JAMA and the reference to the article.

As they say, great minds think alike!

- Bill

[MikeK]

Off track: Bill, have you ever seen Systema? If not contact me and you can borrow my tape. Rich has two of them and I have the same material on one tape.
We now return you to our thread already in progress.

[Bill Glasheen]

I have some Scott Sonnen material that is somewhat general in nature. He's a good man. Once I read the Systema article (from JAMA), I began to understand a lot of what he was talking about. (Fear reactivity)

I most definitely want to see your tapes.

- Bill

[Valkenar]

why not try to keep our soldiers from feeling this pain by offering them our love and not our skeptical viewpoints.

This is a serious question. I would never, ever advocate going up to veterans and saying "hey, your war was unjust, you're a bad person." That would be an awful thing to do. But I also think its important that those who feel that the government is behaving unjustly not be guilted into silence. This goes not only for unjust wars, but for anything where opposition is squelched in this way.

[Bill Glasheen]

It's a real quandry, Justin. I understand your viewpoint completely. And truth be told, I often see myself in you (the "me" of your age). The big difference between our eras is the existence of a draft vs. an all-volunteer army.

I'm not 100% gung ho about "Iraq," Justin. I think the whole bloody world goofed. If you start pointing fingers at guilty parties, you're soon going to be suffering from repetitive motion injuries.

I take solace in the following quote from Winston Churchill.

The Americans will always do the right thing, after first
exhausting all other possibilities.

When all is said and done, I think the world will be a much better place. And there is no harm in thanking those who tried their best to do the right thing, and must pay some consequences on the back end. They did all that for us, after all.

- Bill

[Valkenar]

When all is said and done, I think the world will be a much better place.

Well, I hope so. It even seems like there's a chance of that, though I don't think it's chicken-counting time yet. Yet even if it does work out well, , in my opinion the war is unjust, even if the outcome ultimately turns out to be positive. One might say "I'm glad that happened" in retrospect, but that doesn't mean the decision was just when it was made.

[Mills75]

my apologies as in alot of cases my expression in writing is lacking and I do not think opinion should be squelched either.Bill said it again as usual how i would really like to have come accross in this last response..winston churchill's qoute said it quite nicely so what can i say I just hope that our opinon sometimes of things doesn't effect the soldiers cause they signed up and now must be there whether they agree or not so i just hope they understand whatever people might feel about the war they certainly don't feel about them..

[AAAhmed46]

Seriously, I have talked to many many many many americans online, both pro and anti war, who deny such things occur. Well, just because someone is born in america does not mean they are suddenly morally superior to anyone else. But lots of people hold this mentality. Alot of pro war people i talked to who acknkoledge such acts, often say 'THOSE EVIL MOSLEM HEATHENS DESERVE IT'.