Seisan - Jump To It

[Dana Sheets]

I have heard that Seisan started with 1 sanchin thrust.

I have heard that Seisan started with the double bushkien/hasami strike to the head.

I have heard that Seisan originally started with the two kaki uchi/osaiay movements that are in the first part of Seichin before you turn. The next movement was the double bushiken strike to the head aka hasami strike.

There is anniversary footage from Kanei Uechi's 5 year celebration with Toyama Sensei (I'm pretty sure) doing Seisan with the third opening mentioned above.

Dana

[Glenn]

I have heard that Seisan started with the double bushkien/hasami strike to the head.

This is the one I was referring to, but I was drawing a blank on the Japanese terms.

I have heard that Seisan originally started with the two kaki uchi/osaiay movements that are in the first part of Seichin before you turn. The next movement was the double bushiken strike to the head aka hasami strike.

There is anniversary footage from Kanei Uechi's 5 year celebration with Toyama Sensei (I'm pretty sure) doing Seisan with the third opening mentioned above.

This one is interesting, and it seems like a logical opening.

All of these variations may be accurate, and may have been due to the Chinese influence of not always doing kata the same way twice.

[Glenn]

All this begs the question: Do we focus too much on performing a specific set pattern (and transmitting it through the generations) and not enough on the technique possibilities?

[Guest]

We know what you mean Glenn; we've done it before, too

I have also heard that Uechi Ryu Seisan did not originally have the 3 nukite at the beginning, but instead started with the double ridge-hand strike to the head. Supposedly Kanei added the 3 nukite. Anyone have any info on this?

The three strikes that Uechi Kanei added to Seisan are Sanchin strikes and not Nukite strikes.

The "Short Form" of the Kata starts out with the double ridge-hand strikes to the temples.

Toyama's "Old Style" preserves the three Sanchin strikes in honor of Uechi Kanei Sensei.

In Sanchin, the three Sanchin step moves forward and four to the back are completely arbitrary. You could go four or five and it's ok. The old dojo were small and room was limited. There were only three woven mats on the floor In "hard" Sanchin testing, you may get a jarring round house to your lats or even a major punch that are so hard your brains are rattled and you appreciate the "license" of a couple of extra steps to let the cobwebs clear

[Glenn]

The three strikes that Uechi Kanei added to Seisan are Sanchin strikes and not Nukite strikes.

John,

I've always heard the "Sanchin strikes" referred to as nukite. What are you referring to as nukite then?

The "Short Form" of the Kata starts out with the double ridge-hand strikes to the temples.

Do we know if this is a newer or older version?

In Sanchin, the three Sanchin step moves forward and four to the back are completely arbitrary. You could go four or five and it's ok. The old dojo were small and room was limited. There were only three woven mats on the floor In "hard" Sanchin testing, you may get a jarring round house to your lats or even a major punch that are so hard your brains are rattled and you appreciate the "license" of a couple of extra steps to let the cobwebs clear

Yes, my first Uechi Ryu instructor, in Kentucky, never used a preset number of steps in Sanchin. We would start at one end of the room and go until he call mawate. I was not introduced to the concept of a preset number of steps until I went to another Uechi Ryu dojo.

[Guest]

Glen,

The short answer is:


Sanchin strikes as in Sanchin. The arm rotates at the extension of the strike turning the palm down just before impact.

Nukite strikes as in Kanchu. After the 1st turn, right sanchin strike followed by three nukite strikes. The arm pokes and at extension the strike makes contact with the palm still up. The pattern appears in Seisan just before the jump and in Sei Ryu after the elbow strike and turn.

[RobM]

Glen, don't mean to change the subject but where did you train in Kentucky? I've been in Paducah for 30 years and always thought I was the only Uechi-Ryu practitioner in the state. Thanks, Rob

[Glenn]

Glen, don't mean to change the subject but where did you train in Kentucky? I've been in Paducah for 30 years and always thought I was the only Uechi-Ryu practitioner in the state. Thanks, Rob

Hi Rob, Elizabethtown in the early-1980s until the instructor (Charles Shultz) moved to Georgia in 1985. Three black belts from that class are still in the E-town area. I've been to Paducah a few times, never knew there was a Uechi Ryu practitioner there.

There have also been one or two Uechi Ryu practitioners at various times at Fort Campbell from what I've heard, but of course those tended to be brief stays.

[Glenn]

The pictorial in the George's 1963 Way of Karate shows George opening Seisan with the double low thrust that opens Sanchin, followed by the double strike to the head (with no Sanchin thrusts).

The pictorial in George's 1974 Uechi-Ryu Karate-do show Kanei Uechi opening Seisan straight into the double strike to the head (again with no Sanchin thrusts).

In the video of Kanei Uechi performing kata in 1965 (I believe), Kanei demonstrates once with a single Sanchin thrust followed by the double strike to the head, and once with the 3 Sanchin thrusts as generally performed today.

All three of those sources are from roughly the same time period, so it would seem the was more freedom in how Seisan was performed back then compared to today.

[gmattson]

1st Seisan with three sanchin thrusts. 2nd and 3rd using the "short" form.

Both Tomoyose and Uechi, Kanei had their students perform their seisan in this manner.

[Guest]

The serious karate student needs to learn how to analyze images of all types ... mental, film, photo sequences, etc. It's one level to check the images to find out the gross movements and determine how something was done at the time the image was produced. It's a step above to analyze the image to study what is going on and to discern the subtlety of intermediate positions. On the first level you can check on how to do the kata. On the second level you can perhaps discover the means to do the kata better by improving your techniques and your understanding of the movemens.

Justin's Sensei Erni Sumpter in Philadelphia watched my Seisan and simply told me ... "jump like your fighting on stones." Wow! That worked for me. I stoped pushing back, scattering the gravel so to speak and I was jumping vertically. I was landing on the toes of my right foot for a better grip on the stones rather than "clumping" on the dojo floor. I was lifting off and landing like a Crane or at least that's the mental image I had in mind to approximate. Thank you Sensei Sumpter

The next feature I added to my Seisan jump was a trick I picked up from George Schrieffer. It's part of his push-pull syndrome of moves he's learned from kobudo. Initially, for me, this was a simultaneous thrust of my right arm into the shuto posture ready for the spring forward and at the same time I was thrusting my left arm down for the out side parry. The combo move of right up and left down seemd to propel me with extra lift resulting in greater height and quickness.

The final feature in improving my jump was in analyzing Gushi Sensei's kata tape on Seisan. I discovered through close monitoring that in the horse stance just moments before the jump, his right arm slides forward over the left arm which is held and in Sanchin position, slicing or paring off the opponent's grab on that left arm. Obviously the opponent is close. Just at that point, Guishi performs a hajike uke or right rising forarm thrust and pushes off his front foot for the jump. The result is that the thrust of the jump is under this punch and his entire body weight is connecting to the chin or neck of the opponent. The arm then continues back to the shuto position. Now this is one major hit like a missle from a sub, the importance of a low explosive shot from kuba dache. Guishi Sensei knows how to use size to his advantage. That's why he's ninth degree .

I'm feeling much better about my Seisan jump these days.

[Glenn]

So common that I found a figurine of a karate-ka in the jump-back position. If I think about it I'll take a picture and send to you Bill.

I forgot about taking the picture, until I came across where I had posted a picture of a similar figurine in an earlier thread so here is that picture instead: