I'll let these photos of sweet 16 and soon-to-be pro Michelle Wie speak for themselves.
Photos fron SI.com
- Bill
Beauty is thy name
Moderator: Available
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Bill Glasheen
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Beauty is thy name
To me, one of the most beautiful creations of nature is both the static physique and the physical movement of a natural, world class athlete. Forget the peroxide and the silicone and the nose jobs and the props. What nature selects for in the Darwinian world of competition is - in my view - beauty personified. When nature does her thing, I can't help but gawk like an admiring kid.
I'll let these photos of sweet 16 and soon-to-be pro Michelle Wie speak for themselves.
Photos fron SI.com
- Bill
I'll let these photos of sweet 16 and soon-to-be pro Michelle Wie speak for themselves.
Photos fron SI.com
- Bill
Bad boy Bill
Quit oggling 16 year old girls Bill!
I don't think the ladies round here appreciate it
I don't think the ladies round here appreciate it
The Dragon likes to twist, wind, and coil. No rules apply; an attack will occur when you least expect it.
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fivedragons
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Arrhgh. ...sigh...
I knew this was going to come up, just didn't know how it would turn out.
1) Yes she is beautiful
2) Yes she is very very young
Ever since I started visiting these forums and long before I became the moderator the Women's forum has occasionally been a place where folks come to celebrate what they find to be wonderful and attractive about women. I've toyed with the idea of blipping all such threads and inviting people to post them someplace else. But I'd rather not just stick my head in the sand and pretend this major issue isn't a part of our day to day lives.
Liz I do understand where you're coming from. Every time a thread is opened up with photos of beautiful women I get uncomfortable, frustrated, and annoyed.
And I get reflective because I see both sides.
There's so much misogyny out there that it nice to see women celebrated...however a beatiful woman who does great things is always celebrated for both her actions and her beauty. There's all this baggage around women being sexual objects...but how do you admire someone, anyone, without objectifying them a little bit?
Obviously when the person pictured is under 18 and titled a "woman" and "beauty personified" it can easily be seen as crossing a line.
And if you watch Bill's forum he equally posts pics of his favorite baseball heroes executing their best technique. But what he doesn't do is post pictures of them in a Tux or a swimsuit....so that's where things get fuzzy.
Admire Ms. Wei for her athletecism and gumption for turning pro at such a young age and everything's OK. When we start calling out her obvious sex appeal things get difficult -- as evidenced in Bill's post by his choice of the photos of her in a white dress and in an evening gown.
If she wasn't physically mature then she wouldn't be able to compete at a pro level. Because she is physically mature she is going to be admired for her development. An added and difficult stress to deal with at 16.
This is something we deal with in our karate schools. When a beautiful woman joins the dojo or even just comes to watch class I can see the young guys in our school passing looks back and forth. I sometimes see them more eager than usual to work with such a student. ...sigh...
All roads in biology lead to one place. Sex. Sex=A chance for procreation.
So what is visually appealing is going to be sexually appealing to most. And it is not something we can just "turn off" when we see someone's birthdate.
And in our culture it is taboo to talk about sex or to acknowledge someone as sexually attractive if they're under 18. Under 18 is a minor and sex under 18 falls into the pedophila thing. But that's not what this is about. Ms. Wei doesn't look like a child she looks like a woman. If you'd shown me a picture of her and I didn't know her age I'd guess somewhere between 16 and 20. If I met her in person I might be able to tell better...might. 18 is an arbitrary line in the sand that was drawn during an industrial era to regulate "child labor." Many states kept consent at 14 and 16 until the federal government threatened to cut their highway funding if they didn't all boost it to 18. Development among humans in a continuum. 18 is not a bad number because a good deal of maturation has happened by then for most. Ms. Wei is not "most." She is an early bloomer.
A few years ago we had a "boy" join the dojo. He was 14. He was, as all continue to describe him who met him in the dojo when we talk about him, an Adonis. At 14 he was almost 6 feet tall, fully developed musculature, cognitively mature, emotionally mature, and a fine student to boot. So there was a problem we all dealt with that all the physical and social cues we were getting didn't line up with his age. He was, at 14, for all intents and purposes an adult.
The real line, from a developmental standpoint, between adolescence and adulthood usually lies someplace between 20 and 26 years old. That's when our limbic system and pre-frontal cortex up in our brains fully mature. Our physical bodies mature anywhere between 10 and 22 years old. Girls are generally 2 years earlier than boys in the physical stuff and often about 2 years ahead in the social/cognitive stuff as well.
Between when our bodies mature and when our brains mature is a period that social scientists are now calling the "window of vulnerability". It is when a youth looks like an adult but cannot yet reason like an adult. It is when they are capable of doing adult things but not capable of fully regulating their impulses, emotions or seeing the possible consequences of their choices and when they are much more susceptible to peer pressure.
A few hundred years ago the lines were a little closer together. Puberty didn't hit until 14-19 instead of 10-17. So you started to look like an adult closer to when you started to think like one.
By law Bill is a dirty old man. By biology Bill is acknowledging early and execeptional development as nature intended.
I, in turn, am annoyed, understanding, and frustrated. What I'm trying to avoid is a small conversation which says "that's wrong" and instead engage in a larger conversation to figure out "what can we do?" What can we do to help our youth and adults manage their feelings and their actions during the "window of vulnerability" so that everyone can be safe and happy and yet not in categorical denial of thousands of years of evolutionary hard-wiring.
Solutions are welcome. :idea:s :?:s
-Dana
I knew this was going to come up, just didn't know how it would turn out.
1) Yes she is beautiful
2) Yes she is very very young
Ever since I started visiting these forums and long before I became the moderator the Women's forum has occasionally been a place where folks come to celebrate what they find to be wonderful and attractive about women. I've toyed with the idea of blipping all such threads and inviting people to post them someplace else. But I'd rather not just stick my head in the sand and pretend this major issue isn't a part of our day to day lives.
Liz I do understand where you're coming from. Every time a thread is opened up with photos of beautiful women I get uncomfortable, frustrated, and annoyed.
And I get reflective because I see both sides.
There's so much misogyny out there that it nice to see women celebrated...however a beatiful woman who does great things is always celebrated for both her actions and her beauty. There's all this baggage around women being sexual objects...but how do you admire someone, anyone, without objectifying them a little bit?Obviously when the person pictured is under 18 and titled a "woman" and "beauty personified" it can easily be seen as crossing a line.
And if you watch Bill's forum he equally posts pics of his favorite baseball heroes executing their best technique. But what he doesn't do is post pictures of them in a Tux or a swimsuit....so that's where things get fuzzy.
Admire Ms. Wei for her athletecism and gumption for turning pro at such a young age and everything's OK. When we start calling out her obvious sex appeal things get difficult -- as evidenced in Bill's post by his choice of the photos of her in a white dress and in an evening gown.
If she wasn't physically mature then she wouldn't be able to compete at a pro level. Because she is physically mature she is going to be admired for her development. An added and difficult stress to deal with at 16.
This is something we deal with in our karate schools. When a beautiful woman joins the dojo or even just comes to watch class I can see the young guys in our school passing looks back and forth. I sometimes see them more eager than usual to work with such a student. ...sigh...
All roads in biology lead to one place. Sex. Sex=A chance for procreation.
So what is visually appealing is going to be sexually appealing to most. And it is not something we can just "turn off" when we see someone's birthdate.
And in our culture it is taboo to talk about sex or to acknowledge someone as sexually attractive if they're under 18. Under 18 is a minor and sex under 18 falls into the pedophila thing. But that's not what this is about. Ms. Wei doesn't look like a child she looks like a woman. If you'd shown me a picture of her and I didn't know her age I'd guess somewhere between 16 and 20. If I met her in person I might be able to tell better...might. 18 is an arbitrary line in the sand that was drawn during an industrial era to regulate "child labor." Many states kept consent at 14 and 16 until the federal government threatened to cut their highway funding if they didn't all boost it to 18. Development among humans in a continuum. 18 is not a bad number because a good deal of maturation has happened by then for most. Ms. Wei is not "most." She is an early bloomer.
A few years ago we had a "boy" join the dojo. He was 14. He was, as all continue to describe him who met him in the dojo when we talk about him, an Adonis. At 14 he was almost 6 feet tall, fully developed musculature, cognitively mature, emotionally mature, and a fine student to boot. So there was a problem we all dealt with that all the physical and social cues we were getting didn't line up with his age. He was, at 14, for all intents and purposes an adult.
The real line, from a developmental standpoint, between adolescence and adulthood usually lies someplace between 20 and 26 years old. That's when our limbic system and pre-frontal cortex up in our brains fully mature. Our physical bodies mature anywhere between 10 and 22 years old. Girls are generally 2 years earlier than boys in the physical stuff and often about 2 years ahead in the social/cognitive stuff as well.
Between when our bodies mature and when our brains mature is a period that social scientists are now calling the "window of vulnerability". It is when a youth looks like an adult but cannot yet reason like an adult. It is when they are capable of doing adult things but not capable of fully regulating their impulses, emotions or seeing the possible consequences of their choices and when they are much more susceptible to peer pressure.
A few hundred years ago the lines were a little closer together. Puberty didn't hit until 14-19 instead of 10-17. So you started to look like an adult closer to when you started to think like one.
By law Bill is a dirty old man. By biology Bill is acknowledging early and execeptional development as nature intended.
I, in turn, am annoyed, understanding, and frustrated. What I'm trying to avoid is a small conversation which says "that's wrong" and instead engage in a larger conversation to figure out "what can we do?" What can we do to help our youth and adults manage their feelings and their actions during the "window of vulnerability" so that everyone can be safe and happy and yet not in categorical denial of thousands of years of evolutionary hard-wiring.
Solutions are welcome. :idea:s :?:s
-Dana
Little Girls?
Yes, she looks mature for her age, especially in those pics of her striking the golf ball. All of the intensity in her experssion, the focus eveident in her face, add to her apparent age.
But her actual age doesn't matter at all as far as sex appeal is concerned. She looks like a young woman, not a little girl. Male visual stimulation is hyper-tuned to the young, nubile and fertile-looking famales out there. We WILL notice them. I can't tell you how many times I have oggled some young beauty, having no idea of her age, only to be told to "reel it in" as it were because she happens to be uder 18. I drooled all over 16 year old girls in high school, but now its taboo because I am an adult? If they look 18 they are fair game as far as oggling is concerned.
Add to that that Michelle Wie is asian, and the issue of age prediction gets even stickier. I have seen asian women in their thirties that look 21.
If the ladies who are offended by these types of posts would prefer men hide their true thoughts and feelings regarding young girls and women maybe we should. And maybe another forum would be a better place to share that kind of stuff. But I have a prediction: If one of the female members of this forum were to post some photos of their favorite male athlete, there would't be too many complaints from the guys here.
nb
But her actual age doesn't matter at all as far as sex appeal is concerned. She looks like a young woman, not a little girl. Male visual stimulation is hyper-tuned to the young, nubile and fertile-looking famales out there. We WILL notice them. I can't tell you how many times I have oggled some young beauty, having no idea of her age, only to be told to "reel it in" as it were because she happens to be uder 18. I drooled all over 16 year old girls in high school, but now its taboo because I am an adult? If they look 18 they are fair game as far as oggling is concerned.
Add to that that Michelle Wie is asian, and the issue of age prediction gets even stickier. I have seen asian women in their thirties that look 21.
If the ladies who are offended by these types of posts would prefer men hide their true thoughts and feelings regarding young girls and women maybe we should. And maybe another forum would be a better place to share that kind of stuff. But I have a prediction: If one of the female members of this forum were to post some photos of their favorite male athlete, there would't be too many complaints from the guys here.
nb
I recently had a discussion along these lines with a friend/coworker.
He's male, I'm male.
Our general consensus was that Nature is designed to call our sexual attention to females AFTER puberty, not before, and that the attraction to PRE-PUBESCENT females was an abberation.
Prior to female puberty, adult males should feel a PROTECTIVE urge toward young females.
However in our society we have the sexualization of very young females (Jon Bonet for example) and this trend introduces cues of display of sexuality in females who are clearly too young.
This, in our opinion, is partly what excites pedophiles.
(We defined pedophiles as "those attracted to PRE-pubescent females.")
There was no chronological age assigned, because there was a time when a 20-year-old unmarried female would be considered "a spinster" in their society.
However, the attraction of adult males to nubile, POST pubescent females is Nature's way, and we have set up societal brakes to prevent the abuse of this urge upon pre-pubescent females.
The media and fashion industries could help us out a lot here, but they seem bent upon sexualizing everyone as soon as they are born these days.
Despite appearances, young girls are young girls, not young women.
And by the way, Mr. Glasheen never set up this thread as saying that he thought she was "sexy", he only said he appreciated the form of perfection in a young female athlete (if you can call golfers "athletes".)
NM
NM
.
He's male, I'm male.
Our general consensus was that Nature is designed to call our sexual attention to females AFTER puberty, not before, and that the attraction to PRE-PUBESCENT females was an abberation.
Prior to female puberty, adult males should feel a PROTECTIVE urge toward young females.
However in our society we have the sexualization of very young females (Jon Bonet for example) and this trend introduces cues of display of sexuality in females who are clearly too young.
This, in our opinion, is partly what excites pedophiles.
(We defined pedophiles as "those attracted to PRE-pubescent females.")
There was no chronological age assigned, because there was a time when a 20-year-old unmarried female would be considered "a spinster" in their society.
However, the attraction of adult males to nubile, POST pubescent females is Nature's way, and we have set up societal brakes to prevent the abuse of this urge upon pre-pubescent females.
The media and fashion industries could help us out a lot here, but they seem bent upon sexualizing everyone as soon as they are born these days.
Despite appearances, young girls are young girls, not young women.
And by the way, Mr. Glasheen never set up this thread as saying that he thought she was "sexy", he only said he appreciated the form of perfection in a young female athlete (if you can call golfers "athletes".)
NM
NM
.
The music spoke to me. I felt compelled to answer.
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Guest
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Rick Wilson
“And if you watch Bill's forum he equally posts pics of his favorite baseball heroes executing their best technique. But what he doesn't do is post pictures of them in a Tux or a swimsuit....so that's where things get fuzzy.”
Not too much to say on this but in Bill’s defence:
We know which side of the fence Bill is on so a guy in a Tux or swimsuit picture wouldn’t catch his attention.
Not too much to say on this but in Bill’s defence:
We know which side of the fence Bill is on so a guy in a Tux or swimsuit picture wouldn’t catch his attention.
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Stryke
I think it is a sad statement about our society that beauty cannot be admired for beauty's sake without the admirer being labelled a pervert. We are so wound up tight that everything ends up being made into a "sex hunt". When I first read Bill's post the thought never crossed my mind that Bill was sitting behind his computer screen drooling and trying to figure out how he could get his hands on this girl. I think I understood his actual message, which was that nature has a way of creating real beauty with the human body and that the natural athlete is often one of the most wonderful expressions of that.
That Michelangelo guy must have been a total pervert to see such beauty in a young specimen such as this
That Michelangelo guy must have been a total pervert to see such beauty in a young specimen such as this
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benzocaine
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
