Physical Discipline of children

[-Metablade-]

Right to the meat of the matter..

Do you beat your kids to discipline them?

Do your children fear "The Belt?"
(or other such implementation?)

Do you believe in "Spare the rod spoil the child?"

If you spank them, where do you spank them?
(If you were like my Mom, it was complete and sporadic flailing randomness, accidental groin shots and all.)


And what reasons would you spank for?

If you do not spank, why?

I say this because many of us here in America who are over 30 or younger perhaps were more than likely the recipients of such brands of correction.
(I sure as heck know I WAS.)

Nowadays of course, it is illegal in most states to even lay a finger on your child, punishable by jail, or lawsuit or both, and of course, having your kids taken away and you as parents brandished as a child abuser for life, and possibly being placed on a publicly viewable website as such.

From my experience, in other countries, particularly in Japan, it is perfectly acceptable, (in fact, in certain parts, EXPECTED under certain circumstances) for parents to beat the sacred excrement from their offspring. I've seen full on MA skills come in to play here folks....

Yet statistically Japan has one of the lowest violent crime and murder rates in the world (Colombia was the highest) AND they have some of the best scholastic students on earth.
(Although I cannot scientifically link physical discipline with lower violent crime , it is interesting to muse)


What do you think?


Now, just a treat for those who have DO NOT have kids (Just so you can look forward to them)
Suppose you have a child say, teenage or pre-teen, who, no matter how much you are an "involved loving and concerned parent", no matter what verbal or mental punishment you try, no matter how many "counselors" or shrinks you take them to, no matter how many restrictions you place upon them, or what you take away, they just stare right back at you defiantly, willfully and with malice disrespecting you and your other family members, this creature, who purposefully does bad in school due to nothing more than sheer laziness, and this hellion curses, lies, steals, and generally makes the most rotten, ungrateful apathetic and wholly evil devil spawn ba$tard the world has ever seen? And all the while they grin a smelly untoothbrushed grin at you saying " heh, heh, you KNOW you can't lay a finger on me 'cause all I have to do is pick up the phone and your a$$ is in jail."

Would you consider spanking this child then?
Hmmmm?

[gmattson]

You sure come up with some interesting topics.

I think we discussed this earlier (maybe a year ago) and got some pretty interesting comments.

As I stated then: My feeling is that god gave us padded rear ends for spankings. Of course, everything in moderation. And parents should exercise this right to spank, as long as their kids live at home!

After eight years in a Catholic grade school (run by Nuns), I could write a book on corporal punishment!

[-Metablade-]

You sure come up with some interesting topics.
I think we discussed this earlier (maybe a year ago) and got some pretty interesting comments.

As I stated then: My feeling is that god gave us padded rear ends for spankings. Of course, everything in moderation. And parents should exercise this right to spank, as long as their kids live at home!

Yeah, 'cause that'd be really strange if your Mom showed up at your apartment like when you're 28, and started paddlin' ye.

After eight years in a Catholic grade school (run by Nuns), I could write a book on corporal punishment!

Lemme see a photo of yer knuckles, me boiyo!

[AAAhmed46]

Love your kids?

Beat them.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=beat

[CANDANeh]

After eight years in a Catholic grade school (run by Nuns), I could write a book on corporal punishment!

Yes, I can relate to that. Standing on balls of feet in front of black board keeping my head at a level marked by her (try it sometime and hands can not be used). The strap always close by as well. Anyhow...it was the times and place and overall not bad.
My opinion is never spank while your angry or to make YOURSELF feel better, your trying to change a behavior in the child not release tension caused by the child. I have never had use for physical punishment as too many alternatives imo.

[chewy]

I'm just in my early 30's and my siblings and I were all spanked at one point or another. Interesting timing cause my wife and I just had a discussion about this last night.

My father-in-law feels that his father-in-law was "abusive" to his children. In fact my mother-in-law still tells us that when she was growing up if one sibling earned a spanking, then ALL the siblings got a spanking . Her father figured "I musta missed some wrong you committed anyway, so you're all gettin the switch". This, in of itself, is not why my FiL feels his FiL was abusive; it is because he used to leave welts. What is intersting here is both my FiL and MiL grew up in post-WWII American farming families, but his parents rarely spanked and it was usually with an open hand.

Fast forward to my wife and I. Her parents spanked, but only occasionally and always with the open hand. Often the threat of spanking was enough (probably because her parent would always make good on it if my wife or her sisters took things to the next level). On the other hand, my siblings and I were spanked fairly regularly, usually with the leather belt, but also got it with wooden kitched spoons (effectively paddles) and the open hand. I can remember welts almost every single time; but never did they "beat" us, broke bones, punched, kickec, etc. To me this is as far as corporal punishment can be pushed, without calling it abuse. For my wife and her father, they can't imagine it not being abusive.

Bottom line, we are products of our upbringings. My wife and I have no 2-legged children yet, but do want to have some. This brought us to our discussion last night of how to discipline our children. I think we were both surprised by just how different our "versions" of spanking were. We both knew, after 13 years together, that we had both been spanked as children, but we never really got into the details and when we did we were both surprised. We realized this is something that we needed to talk about and agree upon soon, since we are hoping to expand the family in the next couple of years.

Even though we don't have children, we've both taught children in the past (in fact my wife is still teaching children how to ride horses). I think the biggest thing we've learned from our teaching and from watching friends/family raise their kids is this: be fair but firm (kids understand "unfair") and make good on your threats to your children. If you say "Santa won't come this Xmas if you don't behave." and the kids continue to misbehave, you have to swallow your guilt and make sure Santa leaves little to nothing (something that happend only once to one of my sister-in-laws as a kid, and she never misbehaved between Turkey Day and Xmas again). If you say, "stop making a scene about that toy I'm not going to buy today, or I'll spank you right here in the store", be sure to spank them right there in the store if they decide to push the envelope (something that happend to me, my wife, and our siblings as children).

I'm sure you parents will all be laughing at me in a few years, but that's how I feel now.


cheers,

steve

PS- about the bratty teen scenario either get them legally removed from the family (tough, I know) OR call the police yourself and then discipline the kid when then get there . A co-worker of mine tried this latter solution with an out-of-control teen-aged daughter. She said "You can't make me go to my room! If you lay a hand on me I'll call the cops!" Fed up with her and out of his mind, he called the cops himself. When they got there and asked what the problem was he said, in front of them and his daughter, "My child thinks I can't make her go to her room." The cop turns to the girl and says, "Your dead wrong sweatheart. Not only is he your father, but he outweighs you by over 100lbs and can probably physically force you into your room if he wanted to." She quipped "you wouldn't let him touch me!". With a nod and wink from the cop, he grabbed his daugter by the arm pushed her into the bedroom and closed the door.

[-Metablade-]

Great replies all.


Here's an added twist:
Being a MA practitioner, how do you change your style to "punishment" mode rather than "Kumite" mode?
Do you find it difficult?

CANDANeh pointed out that you should separate anger from discipline, but I feel this is hard to do sometimes.

I'd like to think that I am the type of father you'd see on 7th heaven rather than Tony Soprano, but yet I find that sometimes talk is not enough. Given that I hate to even THINK about physical discipline of my child, I often need to "build myself up" to the task, and think about it clearly.

But I am human, and there have been times when my limit was reached and anger WAS a part of it.
I once found myself in a situation where my brain issued the command for a spinning back kick, but luckily my conscious mind averted the aim and missed her completely.
It had a tremendous effect though....
...among other things, it scared the hell out of me.

So as strange as it seems, I had to sort of "retrain" my nerves for a whole new "mode."

If it were a program file, it possibly would look like this:

$smash=100%+Head_Removed;
change $Power=$feather<2% of smash;
Where $Power=$smash goto $feather;
$butt=No_Damage_lots_of_crying
if when aim=head; goto: $butt
where "Kiyaaaaa!"=$Power;
goto: "An F in Algebra class is NOT acceptable!"
Add $Glower + Menace
/Loop

[Bill Glasheen]

It's a tough subject. And every kid is different.

I spank. I try not to, but I do when I have to.

I have a force continuum.

Level 1 is a gentle discussion. I have been known to lose it, but find I am much more effective when I am in complete control. My older son knows that when I start talking very, very softly...

In level 1, I have learned the importance of making the child tell me what they did wrong (otherwise you are just talking at them), tell me why it is wrong, and apologize if appropriate.

Eye-to-eye contact is vital. As I tell my son, "If you have the balls to do what you did, you'd better have the balls to look me in the eye when I'm talking to you!" I will insist upon that eye-to-eye lock in front of whomever, wherever.

Level 2 is a time out. This still works... Time out means on your knees with nose to the wall. At the end of time out, I expect an apology for someone. Admission of wrongdoing is important.

Yes, I will even do this in the middle of a restaurant.

Level 3 is the paddle. Experience teaches me that something predictable is important. I hate to use the belt the way my father did on me but... Sometimes all it will take is me pulling it off and smacking the hell out of the furniture right by them. Sometimes welts on the butt are necessary.

You need to spank at least once if you threaten to spank. Otherwise the threat is empty.

If in a restaurant, I will spare public discomfort (or judgement) with a trip to the restroom. I actually had someone at a table near me see this ritual. Ten minutes later, the mother came to my table and complimented how well I handled it.

Level 4 is what happens when child is physically out of control. For the most part, my boys know daddy wins. They probably never will get into martial arts the way dad does. And besides, I'm the alpha male in the family. No matter how small, the alpha male wins. It's all in the attitude.

This is where aikido training turns out to be so valuable. Aikido is all about getting complete physical control without hurting someone. My goal is to do what I do so effectively that they would never question, and never sense they had any hope of resisting. Even number 1 son in wrestling is helpless when dad does one of his dirty tricks. One look now is all it takes. Kanbun got it right.

My wife is not an alpha level character. If anything ever happened to me... Number 1 son made the mistake of getting into a physical confrontation with mom last time I was out of town. When I first got home, I still loved on everyone. Daddy is home. Next day however... I sure did get a lot of FREE labor that day.

I think it's very important to understand and acknowledge a force continuum with your children. Over time however, I think it's important to understand where they are in their lives, and what is most effective in modifying their behavior. I don't claim to be an expert by any measure, and I do feel like I make mistakes. Boy do I make mistakes... The first kid - unfortunately - is the brunt of all your poor judgement. The next one is easier.

- Bill

[Dana Sheets]

What is the fundamental lesson we teach when we strike children to modify behavior?

[MikeK]

Don't pizz off dad!

[-Metablade-]

What is the fundamental lesson we teach when we strike children to modify behavior?

This is an excellent point, and one which I wrestle with constantly.
(And I still am undecided)

I think partly it teaches them from at least a base level;
The strong make the rules, and there is a hierarchy of governance, ruled by threat of violence.
(Which of course is a paradox because I raise my child to question everything and everybody.)
Except the screaming big ape-like creature named "Dad" that waves his arms and howls at her when she is bad.


My main impetus for physical disipline is this:
I myself grew up about a poor as one can get, lived in a neighborhood which I saw things I should have not at my age, and I realized from early that the sad, unabashed reality of life is; fiercely competitive, cruel, unfair, impartial, unfeeling, and it really can be "kill or be killed" (mostly figuratively) when attempting to rise above one's meager conditions.
(I should add, and there is also ALWAYS someone waiting to take from you what you have struggled so hard for)

My daughter is taught to know full well that she is the daughter of warriors, (Her monther and I both) and thusly realizes (hopefully) that she is as well.

As I see it, the cold, hard truth is that no one but your family and close friends gives one rat's a$$ about you or one's children, and in fact, while one is busy making plans to move up, others will do everything they can to rip you down.

Life isn't a fairly tale,(Heck, The Bros Grimm is some pretty sadistic stuff) and those who succeed in this life are those who are strong, make themselves strong and have the tools to deal with life's battles on a daily basis.
(And if they can conduct themselves with honor in their battles and help up those they pass along the way, all the better, as such is the way of a warrior.)

I tell myself that physical violence can teach a child that there can be physical consequences for life's mistakes, (Especially when they are due to sheer laziness or lack of attention) and by extension at least mentally, perhaps the connection regarding the seriousness of an action could lead to death.
I often look back on my many many errors in life and wonder with awe just how in the hell I'm still alive today.
I won't let my child take the same dark roads as I took.

For an example, my daughter has told me that she wants to be either an Engineer of Scientist in the Biomedical field.
But, she does have many obstacles ahead of her such as

1. Being a female in a male dominated field
2. Being a minority (Japanese-American)
3. Needs lots and lots of Math (Not her strong suit)
4. Massive, relentless competition for the top paying positions and opportunity due to overseas markets.

Oh yes, Americans are not just competing against themselves these days, but also people from other countries who are leaner, hungrier, more disciplined, in some cases smarter, and willing to work for less money.
Think the job market is stiff now? Wait until China fully becomes the economic tiger that it is now emerging to be.
America is going to be in for a shock quite soon I imagine.

So as I see it, it's essentially the World VS. my Daughter, and the World is not taking prisoners, won't allow tap outs, and is and carrying a crowbar and aint afraid to use it.

If using physical discipline and threats when necessary as a tool in my parenting arsenal to help push her to reach her full potential, and battle all of the obstacles in life to help her dreams come true is teaching her violence is justifiable, I can live with that. (At least I tell myself that)

One day when she has achieved her goals and dreams and is living in a mansion and designing new and better products to enhance her fellow humans, she may thank me for not selling her out by being too wishy-washy, and instead being the kind of parent who kicks her butt when she needs it.

(Then she'll toss my withered, decrepit a$$ in an old age home.)

[-Metablade-]

Eye-to-eye contact is vital. As I tell my son, "If you have the balls to do what you did, you'd better have the balls to look me in the eye when I'm talking to you!" I will insist upon that eye-to-eye lock in front of whomever, wherever.

- Bill

I completely agree on this point.
Eye contact is indeed supremely vital.
When dealing with other people on any level, it can make or break success in getting yourself understood and thus, getting what you want.

Now if my daughter would just stop slouching!
ARGGGGGHHHH...

[Dana Sheets]

I've got to stongly encourage folks to read this Psychologist. He is a noted expert on adolescent development and judgement as well as parenting. He is also a Dad.

The Ten Basic Principles of Good Parenting

And this book:

You and Your Adolescent Revised Edition : Parent's Guide for Ages 10-20, A (Paperback)

In it he talks about how discipline changes as a child becomes an adolescent. And how it becomes more appropriate to use the same strategies you use when dealing with another adult while at the same time modeling for the child and guiding them through your thinking process.

And a mentor who is also a mother recently suggested this book as well that I need to go look up. Written by a contemporary of the well-read Dr. Spock this text included examples of how to walk kids through reflective thinking so they could learn why they were controlling their insults.
Chiam Gnatt is the author. "Between Parents and Children"

One of his proteges wrote the book below based on his theories.

How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk (Paperback)

The table of contents had refreshing chapter titles like "Engaging Cooperation" and "Encouraging Autonomy."

Hitting kids will modify behavior. But it may not be modifying it only in the ways you desire at that moment.

Let's fast forward a generation and watch from our rocking chairs as one of our children hits one of our grandchildren instead of modeling impulse control. How will you feel in your rocking chair? What legacy have you passed along?

Just because we've always done it doesn't mean it's the best way. Laurence Steinberg's approach is backed up by hundreds of studies on effective parenting. And some of what he says breaks with what has always been done.

And no, I am not a parent (yet) but that is coming and so I'm taking some time now to learn about best practices that have been studied since I was a child. Lots of good work has been done in the past 30 years.

[MikeK]

No offense Dana but it's different once you have the kid(s). I have a stack of books on raising kids and most weren't helpful at all. They were either too general or too specific to the author's view.

I'm very old school and by that I mean I use punishments that were used on me as a kid. I've found a great combination to be time and discomfort, so long writing assignments are a favorite around my house. A couple of pages of "I will not ..." works wonders. We also use the good old 1,2,3 trick too. It's amazing how just saying "ONE" gets the kids attention. Early on my kids tried to test our limits and that got them dragged out of Disney World, pulled off of the soccer field and video games broken. For a kid there are worse things than getting spanked.
IMO corporal punishment is a good thing to have hanging over a kids head as long as it's used very sparingly but they know it is an option.

My dad didn't hit me much but when he did look out. He also locked me in a jail cell at his pricinct house, threw my toys out and broke my favorite toy gun in half when I didn't share it. And I thank him for all of it.

[Dana Sheets]

What is the difference between hitting your partner (husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend) to change their behavior and hitting your child to change their behavior?