When yakusoku kumites help

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Bill Glasheen
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When yakusoku kumites help

Post by Bill Glasheen »

We all have our favorite ways, exercises, gurus, and techniques. And we all have those things that seem constantly to grate us vis-à-vis our approach to martial arts. That "nature of humankind" was source for some entertaining discussions on Van's and other forums.

It's all good in my book. Go ahead - challenge the status quo. At the very least, you'll find out that folks aren't quite getting the concepts, or need to do things differently to get the most benefit.

Lately I've seen too strong a pattern associated with the use of the Uechi prearranged kumite exercises for me not to mention it. Allow me to share my thoughts.

First... Before people get all worked up about these exercises, let me tell you MY approach. What I do and what others do are apples and oranges. I don't like the way most people do these exercises, but I don't lie awake in bed at night worrying about it. I just do my thing. These are useful to me, and that's all that really matters. I'd be doing them - or something like them - whether or not they were "requirements" of the style.

Here's my approach.

1) The dreaded "stepping back" is not something we do. My students know this. They just don't bother to get on these threads and talk about it for fear they will get drowned out in volumes of protest.

We do what we do. Others do what they do.

We manage the line(s) of force. Occasionally we bait the partner by stepping straight back. Occasionally we step back because in the real world, our low-road response IS to step back away from danger. But for the most part, I teach people to get off the line of force, or to pre-empt the force (within the bounds of the exercise). It is what it is.

2) To us, this is just an exercise. It's no different to me than doing a bench press. When I bench, I don't worry about the fact that my elbows are going out and I'm exposing my ribs. I don't worry about the fact that I'm not stepping into the weight. I just bench.

These are NOT self-defense exercises. Period. End of story. They are means to an end. To me, it's like the scientist who takes phenomena into the lab and studies them under controlled conditions. As such, we hold some things constant, or create a scenario where we can control certain things. That allows us to focus in on what interests us at that point in time.

3) Following with item number 2 above, I don't care much about what people are doing so much as I care about HOW they are doing it.

In any case, this thread is about teaching people to control their bodies so they are better partners in the dojo.

I've had more than a few "beasts" through the years. Now and then I get a talented one who is like a bull in a china shop. My friend Tony easily could have been an NFL lineman if he had lost a few pounds... 8O The fellow I'm thinking about now also is a big, strong guy.

What happens often when you get these beasts in the dojo is that sometimes they end up hurting people. They don't mean it... It's just that they are there to learn to fight, and they sort of kind of do it. And when their body overextends or whatever, people break. Then at the very least, we lose students. I have feared much, much more. But in spite of thousands of students through the years, I haven't had one injury result in a lawsuit. I don't believe that's an accident.

A few students in particular were challenge cases for me. I knew I had diamonds in the rough, but they were roughing up too many students. So I needed to find ways to have them do their thing in top gear without hurting people. When people get hurt in class, ultimately nobody is learning. We can never get down and dirty and do the fun stuff if all our talented students are out of control.

This past year has given me yet another example of a very strong, talented, level-headed, but dangerously out-of-control student that I (we) managed to reign in via the prearranged kumites. The way I accomplish that is by setting high standards for my students in terms of technique placement and extension.

As I constantly tell my students, "I want you to do what you mean, and mean what you do." So when an attack comes, I want them to end up exactly in the perfect place where they maximize their ability to exploit the openings that the artificial attack creates. I want the counter-attack to be exactly where it is supposed to be, with the perfect extension and contact. When I'm working with them, I mess with their heads a lot. If I sense they aren't attacking me where they are supposed to, I sometimes will drop my hands in mid-kumite. It's very telling when I'm staring at them with hands by my side, and I am not even being touched. Sometimes that's a matter of body positioning. Sometimes it's a matter of improper extension or targeting. Sometimes it's a matter of "attacking the block." In any case, I often can read it, and I "call" them on it.

On the flip side... I use these exercises for my advanced students as well. I find that it's really good to have them do the routines with athletic people who don't know the sequences very well. I fully expect my advanced students to respond to what their partner does, and NOT to what they are SUPPOSED to do. Corrections can be made after the fact; first you CYA. And the routine should always be about perfectly adapting to the partner the way the tea falls inside a tea cup.

Easier said than done...

But if you have high standards, a method, a purpose, and good execution, results usually follow.

For what it's worth...

In any case, I am now happy to report that one more of my "bulls" can safely work in the china shop. :lol: And the more opportunities they get to work with more different kinds of people in the many freeform scenarios we play with - without people getting hurt - the more learning that happens.

- Bill
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Post by IJ »

There are definitely good things in there. My questions are...

1) It's good. Is there something better?

2) More specifically, if it is not a self defense drill, is there a way to teach the lessons it teaches within a self defense drill?

Because while many people take the "I'm learning latin to understand english better" approach, isn't it faster just to study English? That said, while all these debates take predictable and familiar turns, I've yet to see an improved alternative drill proposed. Maybe someone who has issues with kyu kumite and dan kumite could show us the better way.
--Ian
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Ian

I've been putting so many alterations throughout the prearranged kumite and seen so many neat things I'd like to practice that I'm maybe 4 or 5 ideas away from making one of my own. But whatever the hell I come up with, I guarantee you in advance that I won't make everyone happy with it. And I'm good with that. 8)

We shall see...
Ian wrote:
Because while many people take the "I'm learning latin to understand english better" approach, isn't it faster just to study English?
Finis origine pendet.

The world would be a pretty boring place if we all came to the top of the mountain via the same path. Furthermore, everyone has different learning needs, choices, and styles. And finally, some pretty healthy and deep learning happens when we take the "scenic" route. It's all about where and how those synapses get put together.

- Bill
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Post by IJ »

Eagerly awaiting your Bill-Ryu Kumite. As for, "Furthermore, everyone has different learning needs, choices, and styles. And finally, some pretty healthy and deep learning happens when we take the "scenic" route. It's all about where and how those synapses get put together," I still ask:

"It's good. Is there something better?"

Surely despite or besides or because of all our different learning approaches practicing something much like the intended product will produce better results than something substantially different, right? I mean, if you're racing in the indy 500, you race those cars, in similar tracks and you skip the video games completely.
--Ian
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Ian wrote:
I mean, if you're racing in the indy 500, you race those cars, in similar tracks and you skip the video games completely.
True... But then pilots spend lots and lots of time in flight simulators to practice rare and dangerous events. Why? Because flight time is expensive, wind shears and/or odd combat scenarios are often rare, and the cost of learning through failure can be intollerably high.

Yesterday number 1 son got his first shot at pitching EVER in an organized baseball game. They brought him in as relief with one out and the bases loaded. He proceeded to pitch the first batter into a double play on his second pitch. Good! Then he got shelled the next inning, and committed a balk with the bases loaded. C'est la guerre! He learned from his successes, and learned from his failures. And he lived to go home and talk about it.

Where are you going to get that kind of "real" experience in the fighting world without LITERALLY getting shelled? It doesn't happen. So... We simulate. And we simulate in myriad ways to create myriad learning opportunities. No one scenario will teach you the real thing. Each one is like the blind man touching one part of the elephant.

- Bill
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

Bill doesnt that then make the question

what are we trying to simulate ?

your using them to simulate control , and it sounds very valid , but what are the kumites supposed to be simulating/stimulating ?

I`m not going to get into this just a on the surface question , i wont enquire any more deeply . 8O 8) :wink:
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

That's the kind of question you should be asking, Marcus.

I don't consider Kyu and Dan Kumite to be scenario training any more than I conisider jumping jacks, lateral splits, or Sanchin to be scenario training. They are tools I use to teach my students. I don't get worked up about what any of those tools don't do, or what kinds of "habits" they ingrain in someone.

I don't use a pair of plyers to get a lug nut off. But that doesn't mean I throw my plyers away. ;)

- Bill
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Post by Van Canna »

Good post Bill.

Any ‘engagement exercise’ is good and useful, if understood, and you do provide an understanding, much as I did with the
K-bash thread that showed me how easy it is to ‘emotionally high-jack’..Smile.

I still practice Dan kumite and teach it, but with ‘personal flavors’ which is how any student should in order to ‘learn’ something useful.

And in learning, the student should practice just about any variations of it, as we have out there by stellar senseis.

I think it was Mark Brelsford who wrote that Kanei Uechi did not teach stepping back but to use taikawashi_

As to stepping back_ of course it is practical to learn and practice this aspect of self defense, much as in soccer we are thought to run backwards and scan the field to receive and angle a pass to a forward winger.

The skill is in knowing when to step back and when not to. I use this concept in kumites based on what opportunity you present me with.

The technique is also used to ‘trick’ the opposing player as to your ‘direction’ and suddenly find an opening to pass or shoot.

In my games I have used this technique often with one spectacular one in the goal line when the stunned full back found himself six feet behind me while I took a rocket shot on goal that skimmed the ground and bent the goalie’s hands as he dove for it, and scored a goal.

Another tactical use of it was when fighting the famous Joe Sherrin [Shorin Ryu fighter and ex boxer] at the Mattson academy in Boston.

He was very quick and would lunge into you upon sensing motion. I would feint an attack, drawing him in, then stepping back sideways, as in Gem’s ‘eight form’ _ grabbing his arm or shoulder and flinging him into the wall behind me.

Jim Maloney loved to watch me pull this stunt.
Van
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

You're a maniac, Van.

I like that! 8)

- Bill
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

That's the kind of question you should be asking, Marcus.
the question is will anyone answer ? :D :wink:
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answers!

Post by Charlie L »

you think folks will respond to questions!!!!

keep that up mate and some one may ban you :roll:
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

this is a monolouge forum ? ... maybe :? :lol: 8)
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

I believe I've responded to your questions, Marcus.

Sometimes the problem isn't in the answer, but rather the answer given isn't the one expected or wanted.

Don't make any more of these exercises than you would anything else you do to achieve your goals. They can be improved, for sure. Van and I obviously have been tweaking them for years, and we both have complained about elements of them. My complaints have been more muted, but they are still there. But I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And rather than wait for someone to give me the perfect exercise - which does not exist - I choose instead to trust my instincts and tweak on my own. So far it works for me.

And I believe this is probably the process that we all should be working. Don't accept the package "as is." Some assembly required.

- Bill
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

thats fine , I understand your point , it just doesnt address the question specifically , but no foul ....

responded but not answered .

it was the kind a question I should be asking ....
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