This is legal?

[Stryke]

Fair game for what? And what is the limit that this person "deserves"?

to reap what you sow .

how many would react if the reverse kind of intolerance was shown .

[AAAhmed46]

Well that answers the question of whether or not it's legal.

As for canada, i had HEARD that saying racist comments are illegal, though you can critisize political and religious views.

What bothers me about this is how much me mentions the word "arab'' and talks about taxi's.

But from what i have seen most taxi drivers are not arabs, they are usually sikh or hindu, and those that are muslim usually tend to be pakistani or another south asian race.

So how much fact is in this man's beliefs?

[Bill Glasheen]

So how much fact is in this man's beliefs?

The truth? Not much.... but just enough that he is capable of getting under someone's skin. It's a pretty effective tactic, no? Look what he accomplished. He got us talking. He got under your skin.

Try to step back and watch it as an objective person. See it for what it is.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Is America proud of this kind of American?

Americans are proud to live in a society where the government stays out of our business as much as possible. Americans don't just talk diversity; we LIVE it. We are the most ethnically, religiously, politically, and morally diverse country in the world, and proud of it. Americans are proud to live in a country where you can't be thrown into jail, tortured, killed, or have your family members violated because you said something that upset some government official. As putrid as the comments are, the fact that they exist demonstrates free speech in action. Meanwhile, we are exercising our free speech rights by enlightening those whose eyes pass across this.

Fine by me!

No wonder people fly planes into your facilities .

Wow, that's an enlightening comment!

Let's see now... I believe you were referring to 9/11, and the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center twin towers. Note the emphasis on "World." This was an INTERNATIONAL tragedy, over a decade in the making. It was the second attempt to murder thousands from around the world.

Just thought I'd clarify that...

You can have the real estate. How about we start sending it piece by piece - COD?

Hey can Iraqi vets have that on their bumper stickers?

We're quite used to being held to a higher standard. We're quite used to people from other countries being given a pass for what is considered "objectionable" (to put it mildly) in this country.

As far as I am concerned, any Iraqi who fights for the right of self determination of his people and equal rights under the law for all deserves to say whatever the heck (s)he wants. That IS now what our troops are fighting for, no matter the reason(s) for going there in the first place.

- Bill

[IJ]

Question for Gene--this guy's car is registered in the public records, he drives on public streets where he has no expectation of privacy, and he clearly intended to get people's attention with his statements. In fact, he's offering to fight people he offends. I know that you can put up a camera to record spaces where people have no expectation of privacy, even if they don't expect to be videotaped or plain taped. And Dateline just ran video from people who were caught in stings thinnking they were coming to a house where young children were on alone to have sex with them--even people walking away from the reporter saying, "you can't use this on television." What laws govern the publication of photos of faces and other identifying features in public places?

[Bill Glasheen]

Adam

Let's set up a hypothetical. Let's see how good you are at reading the tea leaves.

Suppose you ran across this vehicle in a parking lot.

• What would "the better man" do if he was interested in intervening?
• Given the data right there in the picture, what might you find?
• What would a "best case" outcome be, given you were the wise, well-informed martial artist and "better man?"

- Bill

[Willy]

Man I feel like I tried to pet a porcupine.

I'm not even Muslim but I'd be willing to give the guy a virgin for his
efforts. Is America proud of this kind of American? No wonder people
fly planes into your facilities . Hey can Iraqi vets have that on their
bumper stickers?

Hmmm can’t believe I wrote that, my apologies folks that was rude and insensitive. I won’t try to clarify the point I was attempting to make it will just get crazy too much emotion tied to the event.

I don’t believe I indicated a desire to purchase any building debris or American property, why the offer Bill?

Hey thanks for the flag waving, I agree with much of what you said in the opening paragraph….except Canada is of course the greatest nation on earth. Our neighbours to the south have some positive attributes as well.

Now back to the topic at hand. I think the dude with the SUV might be guilty of a hate crime in our country, not sure about yours. If it’s permissible to promote this type of intolerance in American then it’s the last country on earth I’d wish to live. I guess I’m more PC than I ever suspected.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hatecm.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

It’s unfortunate this vet is using his vehicle as a billboard for ethnic hatred and religious intolerance. Nuke, Mecca…thought SA was one of your allies. Think this poor lad might need some help. War does leave some scars.

[Bill Glasheen]

You're a gentleman for stepping up, sir. Wow, a Canuck with class and honor. Imagine that!

I think the dude with the SUV might be guilty of a hate crime in our country, not sure about yours.

It depends.

If all he's doing is talking, then usually there is no crime committed. Talking is good, sort of like the dog that is barking. It's the dog that doesn't say anything and comes up from behind to bite you in the arse that you have to worry about. It's the fellows who travel at night with sheets over heads, or the smiling villager who leaves an IED by the road at night that one truly should be concerned about.

But... If someone who sports such bumper stickers went out and beat up a Muslim, THEN we have a hate crime on our hands and he is in a whole heap of trouble. So in a way, Mr. Disabled Vet has boxed himself into a corner. By "running his mouth" like this, he's made it much more difficult for him actually to DO anything without suffering some pretty substantial consequences.

Nobody is accusing this fellow of excessive intelligence. So what would make him act like this? Why would he draw potentially dangerous attention to himself?

Think this poor lad might need some help. War does leave some scars.

I couldn't agree more! When I see the bumper stickers, I don't see what they say. I see what they don't say (with clues given elsewhere).

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

thought SA was one of your allies.

It's a love-hate thing. The Saudis want our money, and our economy want their oil. SA was happy we stopped Saddam at the Kuwait/SA border and sent him back home again. Then they wanted us the hell back out of there so they could maintain their own "status quo."

Some of the Wahabbis in SA want us dead. And then there is the fact that the vast majority of 9/11 attackers were Saudi. So is OBL, for that matter. That'll stir up a little something.

For some real data on the matter, consider this.

Posted 6/22/2006 2:27 PM ET

WASHINGTON (AP) — Muslims view people from the West, especially the United States and Europe, as selfish, immoral and greedy. People from the United States and Europe view Muslims as arrogant, violent and intolerant.
The deep divide between Muslims and the West was clearly illustrated in the findings of a new 15-country poll by the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press.

A solid majority in most of the 15 countries polled, both in Europe and in the Mideast, said that relations between Muslims and Westerners are generally bad. While 55% of people in the United States, felt that way, two-thirds or more of the people in Germany and France took a dim view of relations between Muslims and the West.

And each side blames the other.

The survey shows both hopeful and troubling signs with respect to Muslim support for terrorism and the viability of democracy in Muslim countries.

In one of the survey's most striking findings, majorities in Indonesia, Turkey, Egypt, and Jordan say that they do not believe groups of Arabs carried out the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.

More here...

Poll shows divide between Muslims, West

The Great Divide: How Westerners and Muslims View Each Other

- Bill

[IJ]

Bill, forget the Jordanians and Pakistanis--check out the western Muslims who feel the same! Amazing! What does OBL have to do to get some credit around here? He's the innocent OJ Simpson of terrorism. Also, "hate crime" in America means a crime motivated by hate, that is, its a crime to do it to anyone. That's not the case everywhere; in Germany, you go to jail for denying the Holocaust, but not for denying that transfats are bad for you.

As for this:

"If it’s permissible to promote this type of intolerance in American then it’s the last country on earth I’d wish to live."

Chuckle, chuckle.

First, only people who haven't been censored say this kind of thing. Or people who know they don't have any speech to share that's likely to be censored. Support for freedoms is sometimes increased by personal experience--eg the majority of Catholics voted to shoot down Ballot Measure 9, an antigay piece of legislation, because they remembered discrimination against their beliefs in the same area (midwest) by others, and supported freedom even though gay pride and Catholicism don't exactly go hand in hand. Freedom to chose means freedom to make bad choices; freedom to speak means you tolerate (don't accept) hate speech because its better to hash it out in the market of ideas than let your government decide what you think. And there's the side benefit of knowing this guy with the stickers is wacko right off the bat. Isn't that better than not knowing who you're dealing with?

Second, this is the kind of confusion that gets huge crowds out in the west to rally against America while there's less enthusiasm about the repressive states of the world or humanitarian disasters or even a genocide. Maybe you don't like how we tolerate unpleasant speech, but do you really think the USA would be the WORST place to hang out? I mean, sure, one guy in the whole country has a bumpersticker that's flagrantly antimuslim, but would you be happier dancing in the streets with crowds of hundreds who are happy that an act of terrorism took place, as they did on 9/11? That speech leaves you more content? 1 in 3 in some of these countries support suicide bombings (generally taken as including innocents and kids, civilians most of the time) more than occasionally... wow. Hyperbole is well and good but it can make us lose track of the real evils out there.

[Mary S]

Anyone know anything about the "Fighting Words Doctrine" or the "Clear and Present Danger" laws? Anything there that might be applicable?

[AAAhmed46]

Adam

Let's set up a hypothetical. Let's see how good you are at reading the tea leaves.

Suppose you ran across this vehicle in a parking lot.

• What would "the better man" do if he was interested in intervening?
• Given the data right there in the picture, what might you find?
• What would a "best case" outcome be, given you were the wise, well-informed martial artist and "better man?"

- Bill

I would bristle with anger but leave him alone. If he gets out of his car and starts yelling insults at me, i would yell insults back.

EDIT:
If he stays in his car i would be on my way. If he gets off, but has not guns i would have nothing to worry about, he is handicapped, no reason to use fists. Im rather passifistic anyway.

[AAAhmed46]

Americans are proud to live in a society where the government stays out of our business as much as possible. Americans don't just talk diversity; we LIVE it. We are the most ethnically, religiously, politically, and morally diverse country in the world, and proud of it. Americans are proud to live in a country where you can't be thrown into jail, tortured, killed, or have your family members violated because you said something that upset some government official. As putrid as the comments are, the fact that they exist demonstrates free speech in action. Meanwhile, we are exercising our free speech rights by enlightening those whose eyes pass across this.

Fine by me!

Your comments say your proud of america. Which is okay in my book.


But the question was: Is america proud of this kind of american.

Well is it? I think not.

EDIT:
Just remember, every country: Whether it be pakistan or Japan or america, almost every countries GOVERNMENT has at some point done some bad things violating freedom.
Society is like a fight: Dynamic, always changing.

[AAAhmed46]

Second, this is the kind of confusion that gets huge crowds out in the west to rally against America while there's less enthusiasm about the repressive states of the world or humanitarian disasters or even a genocide. Maybe you don't like how we tolerate unpleasant speech, but do you really think the USA would be the WORST place to hang out? I mean, sure, one guy in the whole country has a bumpersticker that's flagrantly antimuslim, but would you be happier dancing in the streets with crowds of hundreds who are happy that an act of terrorism took place, as they did on 9/11? That speech leaves you more content? 1 in 3 in some of these countries support suicide bombings (generally taken as including innocents and kids, civilians most of the time) more than occasionally... wow. Hyperbole is well and good but it can make us lose track of the real evils out there.

You do realize that MOST of the footage news agencies used to show the people dancing after 9/11 was footage of the first gulf war? Especially with CNN.

You also realize that a man named Mohammed Robert Heft helped tip CSIS off about the would-be bombers in toronto? All the electronic monitering was sparked by him tipping off the police.

[Norm Abrahamson]

Dear Ahmed:

The bumper stickers containing anti-Arab and anti-Muslim insults are legal. What comes to mind when seeing racist insults like that are "fighting words." Believe it or not, the U.S. Supreme Court has actually defined fighting words in the case of Brandenberg v. Ohio. Fighting words are words "which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace" and words "plainly likely to cause a breach of the peace by the addressee."

Using this standard, the bumper stickers look like fighting words that would not be afforded constitutional protection. Now comes the BUT . . .

Fighting words are only fighting words when they are addressed to a specific person. If the owner of that truck approached you and said, Ahmed, all Arabs should die, etc., those would be fighting words. However, by putting those stickers on his truck, the owner is merely expressing ideas and opinions, and that he is entitled to do.

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson