Just wondering how many folks here have placed importance on keeping the thumb tucked into the palm, in all our various hand techniques, and why "you" place any particular personal importance (if at all) on this?
Pt 2: (informal poll): how far over across your palm can you park your thumbnail while keeping your fingers thrusting-straight?
NM
The invisible thumb
Moderator: Available
The invisible thumb
The music spoke to me. I felt compelled to answer.
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Stryke
I think it important .
It`s a signature IMHO of Uechi
I`ve smahed my thumbs up pretty badly in the past and it caused me to move away form closed fists and was a big part of my interest in exploring some Uechi .
After Van explained the Bushiken and how to gradually condition it , my thumbs not only werent aggrivated they actually strengthend and healed .
As for how far I can reach right across my hand , but it`s quite a stretch , I sit it under the third finger usually .
Cranes beak , Bushiken etc , the same , also playing with shokening with the first two fingers instead of the single , a Fist confisuration on an early Funikoshi book
It`s a signature IMHO of Uechi
I`ve smahed my thumbs up pretty badly in the past and it caused me to move away form closed fists and was a big part of my interest in exploring some Uechi .
After Van explained the Bushiken and how to gradually condition it , my thumbs not only werent aggrivated they actually strengthend and healed .
As for how far I can reach right across my hand , but it`s quite a stretch , I sit it under the third finger usually .
Cranes beak , Bushiken etc , the same , also playing with shokening with the first two fingers instead of the single , a Fist confisuration on an early Funikoshi book
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Neil
The Sanchin nukite is all about safely tucking the thumb away so it doesn't get caught on things. It's important to do that. The most important thing you learn to do (IMO) in Sanchin with respect to the thumb is just to be aware of what you're doing with those extremities. I can always tell a beginner karate student by how much is going on past the knee in the legs and past the elbow with their hands. Beginners have all the gross motor movements down in their kata, but their hands/wrists and feet/ankles are a complete disaster. It takes time... And that's part of what Sanchin training does for you.
BUT....
You do not - I repeat - do not tuck your thumb away in a "classic" Uechi boshiken (boshi = thumb, ken = fist). On the contrary, you're extending it out. Sort of... Take a look at Uechi Kanei's kyohon. There's a beautiful picture of it in that book, and I do mine the exact same way these days.
I've had years and years to think about and work with this. You will see a lot of what I would call "training wheel" ways to do the boshiken. And to be fair, it's just using the thumb to do things. The Bruce Siddle PPCT thumb - quite unconventional from a Uechi point of view - is by definition a boshiken and IMO a perfectly valid "variation on the theme."
You can't just smash things with your thumb without training. You need to make it strong.
Furthermore, the whole "pangainoon" theme of Sanchin comes in with the boshiken just like it does with many other Uechi weapons. It's 50% smashing things, and 50% grabbing things. It's just as much yin as yang.
The easiest way to develop the "muscle memory" (synaptic pathways) for doing a "classic" Uechi boshiken is to do the jar (kami) training. And it must be done correctly. Here for the most part you're learning the grab (yin) half of the boshiken. As I explain to students, what you learn to do is a normal grab except for the fact that you bend at your first thumb joint. The first thing that does is to diminish the lever arm against your large thumb joint, thus minimizing the risk for the classic karate thumb sprain. Then when you learn how to place the boshiken on flesh and subsequently try to form a hiraken, the epiphany hits you.
I've also found reverse wrist curls with a barbell help. Hold the bar only with the Uechi boshiken thumbs while doing this. It's as good as the classic jar training, and teaches you how to use the thumb in conjuction with the forearm extensor muscles.
To learn the "yang" part of the Uechi boshiken, I highly recommend "Uechi pushups." These are a bit difficult to describe, and even more difficult to do. My students struggle with them, but enjoy them. Basically you tuck your ring and pinkie fingers away, and try to form an equiangular tripod with the bent thumb, bent index finger, and bent middle finger. When you do it right, you are contacting on your boshiken joint, your shoken joint, and the primary hiraken (middle finger) joint. You exercise the yang aspect of 3 Uechi techniques all at once.
I then often have the students play tug-o-war games with the yoga mats grabbing them with their shokens and then their hirakens (hirkakens = clenched boshikens). That works the yin parts of those techniques.
- Bill
The Sanchin nukite is all about safely tucking the thumb away so it doesn't get caught on things. It's important to do that. The most important thing you learn to do (IMO) in Sanchin with respect to the thumb is just to be aware of what you're doing with those extremities. I can always tell a beginner karate student by how much is going on past the knee in the legs and past the elbow with their hands. Beginners have all the gross motor movements down in their kata, but their hands/wrists and feet/ankles are a complete disaster. It takes time... And that's part of what Sanchin training does for you.
BUT....
You do not - I repeat - do not tuck your thumb away in a "classic" Uechi boshiken (boshi = thumb, ken = fist). On the contrary, you're extending it out. Sort of... Take a look at Uechi Kanei's kyohon. There's a beautiful picture of it in that book, and I do mine the exact same way these days.
I've had years and years to think about and work with this. You will see a lot of what I would call "training wheel" ways to do the boshiken. And to be fair, it's just using the thumb to do things. The Bruce Siddle PPCT thumb - quite unconventional from a Uechi point of view - is by definition a boshiken and IMO a perfectly valid "variation on the theme."
You can't just smash things with your thumb without training. You need to make it strong.
Furthermore, the whole "pangainoon" theme of Sanchin comes in with the boshiken just like it does with many other Uechi weapons. It's 50% smashing things, and 50% grabbing things. It's just as much yin as yang.
The easiest way to develop the "muscle memory" (synaptic pathways) for doing a "classic" Uechi boshiken is to do the jar (kami) training. And it must be done correctly. Here for the most part you're learning the grab (yin) half of the boshiken. As I explain to students, what you learn to do is a normal grab except for the fact that you bend at your first thumb joint. The first thing that does is to diminish the lever arm against your large thumb joint, thus minimizing the risk for the classic karate thumb sprain. Then when you learn how to place the boshiken on flesh and subsequently try to form a hiraken, the epiphany hits you.
I've also found reverse wrist curls with a barbell help. Hold the bar only with the Uechi boshiken thumbs while doing this. It's as good as the classic jar training, and teaches you how to use the thumb in conjuction with the forearm extensor muscles.
To learn the "yang" part of the Uechi boshiken, I highly recommend "Uechi pushups." These are a bit difficult to describe, and even more difficult to do. My students struggle with them, but enjoy them. Basically you tuck your ring and pinkie fingers away, and try to form an equiangular tripod with the bent thumb, bent index finger, and bent middle finger. When you do it right, you are contacting on your boshiken joint, your shoken joint, and the primary hiraken (middle finger) joint. You exercise the yang aspect of 3 Uechi techniques all at once.
I then often have the students play tug-o-war games with the yoga mats grabbing them with their shokens and then their hirakens (hirkakens = clenched boshikens). That works the yin parts of those techniques.
- Bill
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Picts of fists and barbell exercise please? Would be helpful.
When I teach I tell beginning students to keep it tucked in all the time to build flexibility and strength. If they can do that AND get all the way through a series of exercises.
I'm not sure I agree that a hiraken is a closed bushiken...my vertical and horizontal bushikens vary a bit.
When I teach I tell beginning students to keep it tucked in all the time to build flexibility and strength. If they can do that AND get all the way through a series of exercises.
I'm not sure I agree that a hiraken is a closed bushiken...my vertical and horizontal bushikens vary a bit.
Did you show compassion today?
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I definitely have some pictures to take - going back to the whole shukoken thing.Dana Sheets wrote:
Picts of fists and barbell exercise please? Would be helpful.
The camera will make it to the dojo tonight. I'll see how far we can get.
Everyone has their own methods. If you don't supplement with either kami training or some other supplementary work, then you need to do something to get folks started.Dana wrote:
When I teach I tell beginning students to keep it tucked in all the time to build flexibility and strength. If they can do that AND get all the way through a series of exercises.
Interesting... I'll have to get you to show me what you do.Dana wrote:
I'm not sure I agree that a hiraken is a closed bushiken...my vertical and horizontal bushikens vary a bit.
It works for me, Dana. And I've evolved to something that - when I look back at pictures in the kyohon - turns out to be pretty classical.
But there are many ways to skin that cat. I contend that what we do in Sanchin is just a prototype. There are many ways you can vary on the theme to accomplish what you need. Whatever it is you do, you have to make it work for you.
Ever seen a Bruce Siddle thumb strike he uses in PPCT? I was his uke (a.k.a. meat puppet) in the middle-eighties when George brought him to camp.
........................
Bruce had never studied Uechi before, but he had a unique way of using his thumb. It worked... I'll have to picture that one as well.
These days, Jimmy Malone teaches much of Bruce's stuff at camp. It's worth some time if you get a chance. But whatever you do, DON'T VOLUNTEER!
- Bill
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Stryke
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Stryke
Just a matter of gradually increasing the contact , and building up to it .
Honestly didnt take longer than a few months . I started with a handle full of soft hits and then increased , I think from memory Van said thirty times each would do , and not to over do it . I started utilising the whole pad area of the thumb like a more focused palm heel , and then when that was strong started expirementing with hitting with the thumb joint a little more .
there are better folks on here to ask though , I personly found the Bushiken a solid weapon .
I`m sure the Uechi experts on board will have usefull advice . But gradual and consistent would be my advice . Worked for my joints .
Honestly didnt take longer than a few months . I started with a handle full of soft hits and then increased , I think from memory Van said thirty times each would do , and not to over do it . I started utilising the whole pad area of the thumb like a more focused palm heel , and then when that was strong started expirementing with hitting with the thumb joint a little more .
there are better folks on here to ask though , I personly found the Bushiken a solid weapon .
I`m sure the Uechi experts on board will have usefull advice . But gradual and consistent would be my advice . Worked for my joints .
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I believe if you spend more time exercising and less time whacking with it, you'll be better off.
Start by realizing that an extended thumb offers a longer lever arm against the base thumb joint, never mind a longer thing to get in the way of fast movement. That means a greater opportunity for a thumb injury. This is why so many people get "karate thumb." If you realize this and develop the habit of grabbing with a boshiken rather than extended thumb, then your thumb will stay healthy and eventually will get strong from the grabbing. Then everything else - if you ever get there - is icing on the cake.
- Bill
Start by realizing that an extended thumb offers a longer lever arm against the base thumb joint, never mind a longer thing to get in the way of fast movement. That means a greater opportunity for a thumb injury. This is why so many people get "karate thumb." If you realize this and develop the habit of grabbing with a boshiken rather than extended thumb, then your thumb will stay healthy and eventually will get strong from the grabbing. Then everything else - if you ever get there - is icing on the cake.
- Bill
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Stryke
Everyone should have a minimum base of strength before starting any contact conditioning IMHO , good catch Bill
But being strong and being able to take a knock is extremely different in my experience .
unless your talking mental toughness vs physical toughness .
the difference being wether you can do it day after day .
But being strong and being able to take a knock is extremely different in my experience .
unless your talking mental toughness vs physical toughness .
the difference being wether you can do it day after day .
