French bravery - the classic oxymoron

[Bill Glasheen]

If I can step in here...

The issues discussed have some well-written references. I had recalled reading on the subject recently, and it didn't take me long to find a good source that reflects on the issue.

French people

Posts are coming in fast and furious. Think and reflect before you hit submit!

Back to your regularly scheduled broadcast.



- Bill

[Stryke]

Bigot

a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

Racist

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.


maybe neither or both are accurate in the pure sense , but I dont think Bigot is the word , maybe just prejudice , although when it`s strictly a judgement against nationality It seems hard not to attribute it to racisim .

[Willy]

If your Grandfather was baggin the French I don't blame them for not serving him.

I have not accussed your relatives of anything pal give it a rest. This statement stands.Anyone being rude is normally refused service. It's not like your giving anyone much to go on.

I'm not surprised you got your ass kicked in Europe, I begin to understand why you don't use your name on the net. You can't discuss the topic without personal attacks. No more wasting oxygen on you.Dance alone pal.

[cxt]

Styrke

A--its was specfically about Parisians--just didn't feel like making that distinction at that point.

B-My "excuse" is that we hold grudges in my family---loonnnggg grudges.
We don't forget slights---we do forgive them---just don't forget.

What part of me NOT considering it "rational" was I not clear about???
Never claim "I" was being rational about it---pretty much flat out said that it WAS NOT "rational" at all.

C- I have already establish "French" is not a "race"--therefore its impossible to for me or my grandfather to hold a grudge against "an entire race" as you put it.

Racism is term applied to RACES of people--NOT cultures.

Bigoted may or may not be accurate---but its MUCH more a correct term than "racist."

I think your right--"prejuduce" is a much better term.

(Course all you have to do is present exactly what "race" a frenchmen is and you have me.)

Well Stryke--you pose some interesting questions.

Whom should I be siding with here?
My own grandfather or Willy??
My own family or some guy that I have never met and only interact with on-line.

Does the fact that he was still hacked off about it over decades tell you anything over how much it hurt him?

Is there some sort of Statuate Of Limitations on treating people poorly??

Is it possible that I have experienced the self-same treatement on MY own travels thu Paris?

You tell me.

[Willy]

Is there some sort of Statuate Of Limitations on treating people poorly??

Maybe they were just joking mate. Don't get so PC about it.

[cxt]

Willy

Your still not getting it--so I'll try one more time.

I could care less what your opinon is of my grandfather---don't know you, probably never will--and I'm cool with that.

What irks me is the sloppy thinking behind your comments.

The "double standard" you express in your expectation of "courtsy" ie something you DEMAND of others--but refuse to practice or extend yourself.

Kinda reminds me of the guys in the dojo that like to go REALLY hard on the bunkai and sparring---until people start giving what they get---THEN all they can do is whine and moan and bitch about people "going to hard" with them.

You don't like it?

Don't dish it out.

Just a suggestion.

And your poor treatment of others---esp your tendency to fling words around like "racsist" at anyone whom disagrees with you.

Any of this sinking thu?

[Stryke]

You should agree with Willy

you`ve already defined your own position as irrational .

the argument the French people are not a race (and by popular understanding/definition they are) is nothing more than sophistry and to use Bills term a strawman argument .

did you not read my initial quote

race definitions are imprecise, arbitrary, derived from custom, and that the races observed vary according to the culture examined. They further maintain that "race" as such is best understood as a social construct, and conceptualize and analyze human genotypic and phenotypic variation in terms of populations and clines instead. Other scientists, however, have argued that this position is motivated more by political than scientific reasons. They argue that categories of self-identified race/ethnicity or biogeographic ancestry are both valid and useful, that these categories correspond with clusters inferred from multilocus genetic data, and that this correspondence implies that genetic factors might contribute to unexplained phenotypic variation between groups.

racial definitions are an imprecise science , it is more a social construct than anything else .

your falling back on personal attack , I find your thinking to be terribly illiogical , but others would say the same of mine no doubt .

I see your grandfathers bigotry (whatever you wish to define , hatred is hatred) as understandable , your own in perpetuating it as ignornace .

I can see some of the American perspective , I`ve seen Americans treated badly while abroad , there are many out there in the international community as racist and bigoted as the proverbial Ugly American .

the trick however would be to rise above it .

to define cultures one needs to be able to step out of there perspective and try to understand others .

I wish all folks should travel more and not in a touristy way but actually live some life in another culture .

[cxt]

Stryke


Wrong on both counts.

"Sophistry" does not somehow "equal" "strawman"

A "strawman" is more or less incorrectly labeling somthing then using that "label" to construct arguments around.

Calling people "racist" when "race" is not in question simply wrong.

Calling people on their mistaken use of heavily laden term like "racism" is also "sophistry."

"Pedantic"---I could go with "pedantic"--could go with "nit-picky, could even "buy" "nuanced."

But expectations of and asking for accuracy is NOT "sophistry."

BTW--your quote ALSO rather strongly indicate that "racsim" is the wrong word to be using here.

I would also suggest that expecting people to be Vulcan rational about their family is an "irrational" expecation in and of itself.

My grandfather certainly did not deserve the treatment he got.
I personally have expereinced the same treatment.
Not a case of "ignorance" its a case or personal experiecne---kinda the OPPOSITE of ignorance.

Like I keep saying---don't act on my feelings of resentemnt over the treatment of we have receieved.

Do bitch about it.

Persoanly I think your going overboard as to your reaction.

I'm not the one throwing about words like "racist."

I'm not the one saying "hate"--did I say "hate" or is that YOUR putting words in my mouth??

[Stryke]

I never said he did deserve it .

I`m done ...

you know exactly what i mean , thats my position .

If you cant have your own mind then whats the point discussing it .

[Willy]

the heck with it I'll stay the course.


CTX

I.) I have no opinion about any member of your family.

2.) I have not called you or your family racisits.

3.) No double standard just you distorting things. Please post my comments where I claim that your a racist.

4.)I've been most polite to you pal . You continue to imply I'm stupid, that I'm dishonest in my responses, that I have treated you poorly. Cut the crap! I expecty this kind of behaviour from a troll not a regular contributer to these pages.

[cxt]

Stryke

Hope you don't get the sense that I'm hacked off with you or anything.

Were just talking here--having a discussion.

I certainly don't take anything that has been said personally.

Really hope the same

Seriously.

Will be happy to offer an "I'm sorry" if I have.

Again, seriously.

[Stryke]

Is not personal of course , there is just no benifit in this .

[Willy]

agree Marcus.

[AAAhmed46]

Willy

Your still not getting it--so I'll try one more time.

I could care less what your opinon is of my grandfather---don't know you, probably never will--and I'm cool with that.

What irks me is the sloppy thinking behind your comments.

The "double standard" you express in your expectation of "courtsy" ie something you DEMAND of others--but refuse to practice or extend yourself.

Kinda reminds me of the guys in the dojo that like to go REALLY hard on the bunkai and sparring---until people start giving what they get---THEN all they can do is whine and moan and bitch about people "going to hard" with them.

You don't like it?

Don't dish it out.

Just a suggestion.

And your poor treatment of others---esp your tendency to fling words around like "racsist" at anyone whom disagrees with you.

Any of this sinking thu?

Ive been slighted by a white guy in canada.


I guess all canadians are assholes. Maybe i should hold a grugde.

Its happened a few times, maybe i should hold a grudge against an entire people?

Ive had black people treat me bad. I guess "Black culture" is bad and evil and all are like that. Im not talking the race. Im talking judging a culture because of it's nutcases.


Some Orthodox jews in the park give me dirty looks when i dressed traditionally coming back from the mosque in down town once.

Does that make it okay for me to type cast all 'jewish culture'? Of coarse not, ive met some very good jewish people.



Just because your grandfather holds a grudge and judges an entire culture and people due to a few bad experiences doesnt make him right. Just because he is your grandfather, remembering something that happened in a time of tensions, doesnt make him right.


If Vietnamese people look down on americans and told similar jokes and opinions based of experiences due to the war, would you let them say this?

Or would you tell them thier full of #####?

So your grandfather didnt deserve bad treatment.

I understand that.



But what about others treated badly by americans and hate america for it?



CXT, have you not met fellow americans who are jerkoffs?

I certainly have met other pakistanis who are assholes.

Hell the country is being run by one of them

[AAAhmed46]

Wow for some reason i took this too seriously.


I want some poutine damn it!