Seisan Bunkai takedown???

[AAAhmed46]

Yeah all this secret society stuff with karate is counter productive to the art.

[M J Brelsford]

Tegumi is both learned growing up and worked in the dojo. These techniques are not "secret", don't know who said it was, just gotta be around to learn it, no more or less.

Van, I am not talking about this being taught in Okinawa it is. It is shown very open there. What I am talking about is seminars/visits I have attended stateside. I just have seen that most Okinawan teachers that visit here are trying to get folks to get the basic skills right and don't have the time to show advanced stuff. If you need to see it, I suggest to have IUKF contacts in Okinawa send your group a tape on it, then you can see it.

Its no secret.

Mark

[Stryke]

Hey Mark , good stuff

Any chance you could explain a couple examples of basic takedowns form the forms ?

understand that this isnt the easiest medium though .

[M J Brelsford]

Here is a rough attempt to describe a simple takedown:

Attacker punches with a right punch.

Defender left stance - does a left palm block as they tension step (with left foot first) up and into the attacker (closing the distance close to the attacker along his right side, stepping into the attack) they then complete a right circular block to get the attackers arm out of the way. Should attempt to step behind the attacker as you spin them away from you.

Defender then strikes the attacker (using the forearm) around the head/neck area, in the same motion grabbing the attacker around the head /neck (should be one smooth motion) then enforces the grab by locking his left hand over the right fist. Should now be behind the attacker.

Defender then steps back away from the attackers back dragging/dropping them to the ground.

Hope you can understand it.

Mark

[Stryke]

Thanks Mark , very clear , excellent !!!

[Van Canna]

His second DVD is an actual grappling formal series of exercises he created to make teaching takedowns and submissions easy to understand and remember.

I have trained a bit with Joey, and been a ‘corner man’ for all his fights. BJJ is a sport but can also kill and destroy joints and limbs easily if a practitioner wishes. That was my hands on impression.

George, we still remember that overhead throw that almost killed that fighter. He was out twenty minutes and carted away by ambulance.

And Joey is a terminal hitter as well. There goes a well rounded fighter if I ever saw one. His KOs against champion kickboxers and other champions tell the story.

But what is interesting, George is that Mark said the Uechi grappling [Tegumi] as taught in Okinawa is more devastating than BJJ.

Many of us would love to see it demonstrated in action.

We kind of wonder why after all these long years we have never been told or shown any of this stuff.

I have had very long talks with Tomoyose about Uechi but never once has he brought this up.

In your trips to Okinawa did you ever see it done and by whom? Why would this never be mentioned is what is baffling.

It is shown very open there. What I am talking about is seminars/visits I have attended stateside. I just have seen that most Okinawan teachers that visit here are trying to get folks to get the basic skills right and don't have the time to show advanced stuff. If you need to see it, I suggest to have IUKF contacts in Okinawa send your group a tape on it, then you can see it.

Ok…so it is shown openly in Okinawa. My question is then why all the people who have been to Okinawa, even the ones who stayed a while, never mentioned this to anyone.

This is baffling. We also do not see it in professional videos of Okinawans demonstrating Uechi Ryu_ That is counterproductive to the worth of the system. Grappling skills_ stand up or down on the ground are survival techniques on the street in addition to striking and seizing.

It seems to me that the masters should at least bring this to our attention.

I suggest to have IUKF contacts in Okinawa send your group a tape on it, then you can see it.

Great…where and to whom in Okinawa would you suggest we could send this request?

George, could you write to Tommy – san and ask him to get us a video of it?

[Van Canna]

Some of you may be familiar with a particularly nasty application of the bunkai takedown we have occasionally used in tournaments.

After trapping the right arm and the right leg of the uke 'opponent' _ instead of spinning him down easily _ you kick his supporting left leg from under him with the shin of your left leg, following through aiming to hit the celing.

Be careful if you are tempted to use this approach.

He will hit the floor hard on his buttocks or his back.

[M J Brelsford]

Van,

Who said tegumi is more devastating then BJJ, I said it was different and not the same thing.

Tegumi is not Uechi grappling, it is an art unto itself.

If you want to see tegumi, look at some of Patricks stuff...

I thought IUKF had/has Oki contacts, speak with them, I am sure they can explain tegumi/grappling to the IUKF. If folks have not seen it that have visited Oki again, that tells me something.

Mark

[Stryke]

Tegumi is a traditional practice and suposedly evolved into Okinawan sumo , which pretty much seems to have gone along with and influenced karates development .

Hanshi McCarthy has a systemised form of Tegumi Renzoku-Geiko , basically a set of flow drills or two man drills .

From A Uechi/McCarthy perspective I beleive it safe to say Kotikitae is a tegumi drill

My exploration of Uechi has been on one level an exploration of Uechi through Tegumi drills , having first been introduced to them via Hanshi McCarthy

Tegumi Drills In Hanshi McCarthys methods being the link between kata and application .

Tegumi does transcend style IMHO .

lets not confuse terminology , lets keep this about exploring and learning more about takedowns , and how we can further spread the information and improve the general wealth of knowledge in Uechi

[Josann]

Tegumi video

http://media.putfile.com/Tegumi-Practice

[MikeK]

Whoops. Post not needed.

[gmattson]

It is easy to assume that every generation of karate students returning to Okinawa will view what they see in dojo as being what was done there 50 or 100 years ago.

It isn't!

Karate evolves there, just as it does everywhere else.

Although there were occasional "takedowns" in the early sparring matches the Okinawans were experimenting with, these techniques were more judo related than a specialized grappling method related to Uechi-ryu.

There was a judo program on Okinawa, taught at a local police station, which was the only dojo (and I visited and worked out at most of the Uechi dojo) that practiced or taught any type of formal "grappling" or "takedown" programs.

All the dojo practiced "finishing" moves following "cooperative" drills, like the original kumite 1, which preceded the now popular "dan" kumite and "kyu" kumite.

When "dan" kumite was introduced, the creators put in the first formal "takedown" that used techniques related to our Uechi system.

I'm assuming that some dojo had their own specialized methods for "finishing off" opponents in sparring and drills, probably learned from other sources, just as our weapon training, which is not officially part of the Uechi-ryu that Kanbun introduced to Okinawa.

There is no doubt that many individual teachers received specialized training in many areas, from teachers other than Kanbun and Kanei Uechi. It is not surprising that an area of interest to a teacher would become part of what that teacher taught in his dojo.

[Van Canna]

> Who said Tegumi is more devastating then BJJ, I said it was different and not the same thing. <

OK_ I misunderstood.

>Tegumi is not Uechi grappling, it is an art unto itself. <

This where the readers may get confused. Thus far we have been talking about the ‘hidden’ grapple out of Uechi moves, unless I misunderstood.

Now we see the word Tegumi to mean an art unto itself.

But what are the origins of Tegumi?

From Wikipedia:

Like most other forms of wrestling it seems that Tegumi evolved from a primitive form of grappling self defense, which was constantly being adapted and enhanced as it was exposed to outside influences.

It is believed by some, Nagamine included, that Tegumi was probably the original form of fighting in Okinawa and, as it was enhanced by striking and kicking techniques imported from China, the progenitor of Te, which is the foundation of modern Karate.

No question that the old kata has lines of direction and force that lend naturally to grappling applications. But it seems that in order to teach these ‘hidden potential’ of the kata_ one first needs to be well schooled in Tegumi_ an art unto itself as you explain it_

And then a student would need to be proficient at the performance of kata before the Tegumi is able to enhance the hidden applications, I agree.

But what defines 'proficient' and by whom are we to accept this definition? In the end it will be all about individual take.

But why wouldn’t Okinawan seniors have brought this to the attention of students early on?

George, good explanation of what you saw 50 yrs ago. So it begs the question as to the why they had to go to judo as opposed to the understanding of what was already in the kata, or to Tegumi, pre-existing karate on Okinawa.

But if things have changed -evolved to 'Tegumi' the kata for a better understanding_ by masters well versed in an 'art unto itself' as Mark explains_

Then the master instructors, by showing such existing concepts early on, even in professionally made videos, a student[s] might just get motivated to pursue training more seriously and in more depth without the need to cross train in BJJ, as an example, as Pomfret did, in order to become a MMA champion.


And it would be done in accordance with some existing 'standard' rather than rely on dojo experimentation akin to opening a 'Pandora's box' _

Again_ Why don’t we see any Tegumi blending with kata concepts in professionally made videos now being sold worldwide?

A Fair question.

So who’s to teach it _ and how to teach it safely _ AND TIMELY _ for the sake of the students’ defensive capabilities early on and not 10 yrs down the training road?

It would go a long way towards student retention, which is the name of the game to preserve our system for generations to come.

Did Kanei Uechi teach Tegumi? If so, why was it never filmed? Did he know it? did he think it was necessary?
Anyone ever ask him that question?

Who are the presently Tegumi skilled teachers on
Okinawa?


McCarthy’s Koryu Uchinadi’s training methods on video, for example, focuses on application principles and link fundamental technique directly to their corresponding defensive themes.

Why don't we have the same?

George, would Tommy-san be able to help us with a video of Tegumi in Uechi?

Or will he be bound by some rule that prevents him to 'share' with other associations?

Interesting discussion.

[M J Brelsford]

Van,

To make it clear...

Tegumi is Okinawan, it is an art unto itself. It is often called Okinawan sumo. It is part of the culture.

Uechi grappling, is not tegumi. In several Okinawa Uechi dojo, as I stated, we did grappling training. Takedowns/locks/chokes/limited floor work it was not uncommon. It was not shown as a secret, just done.

Also, for me, I trained in Goju Ryu with Hokama sensei, applying movements of their kata. We perfomed in depth locks/chokes/takedowns and some other VERY nasty stuff.

I doubt you will see a professional done video by the Okinawans, it is just a part of the big picture and in many places not a big deal.

Why haven't you seen it, my opinion, is most folks don't get much past working general Uechi stuff when they visit Okinawa. Okinawans are not naive or stupid, dispite the language barrier, they can see when someone is not willing, open, or ready to learn. Regardless of their rank, all to often I have seen the "Ugly American", most often these folks spend a lot of time being shown the island and being entertained, some times training, tested and sent on there way. Others perhaps do not spend the time to learn it or are not shown it because it is not a hot topic of debate. I asked and was shown, I went looking and found more, its that simple.

Mark

[Van Canna]

Good post, Mark_ it clarifies the difference.

So as to the Uechi grapple_ how are students to develop an interest in it, seek it etc., if the Okinawans do not bring it to our attention to start with.

That is the question.

The next question is: why would a skilled BJJ teacher not be able to teach strong grappling skills, more grapple specific, along the lines of force and directions the Uechi kata shows him?

We do have the example of Joey Pomfret here that showed us how effective that combination is.

Would he have been as successful in the ring against UFC fighters had he sought Uechi grapple skills as opposed to proven BJJ skills?

And had he chosen to go the Uechi grapple route and not being able to afford the time and money to travel to Okinawa_ where could he go to learn it in the States?