Seisan Bunkai takedown???

mhosea · Post by **mhosea** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 7:01 pm

If the grappling techniques are really part of the system (as opposed to a personal synthesis of a given instructor), then fine, but I suspect Pomfret's approach (directly combining BJJ and Uechi Ryu) is superior to exploring the nooks and crannies of the Uechi system for tidbits of grappling which are not made explicit as a matter of course before sandan or so. If you're out of beans, go to the store and buy a bag, don't spend all afternoon searching in the pantry for individual beans that fell out of other bags over the years. You might come up short, and even if you don't, your beans might not be fully cooked by supper time.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:51 pm

Good point Mike, and I agree.

The shortest way between two points is always a 'straight line' _

To remember is that we, as teachers, will have people coming in to our dojo for various reasons.

Two of the uppermost being self defense and sport.
As such, we need to get them ready in the shortest possible time, as for some of them their lives may depend on it.

The reason why this 'hidden' business and fumbling 'exploration' is something to be careful about.

If it is there then let us see it and let it be taught at the earliest possible stage and let the student decide how far he wants to go with it.

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:41 pm

What part of the training described in this thread can accurately be described as fumbling?

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:43 pm

Rant on

Uechi is a chinese art , chinese arts all have grappling components .

they have similar postures and principles

take the postures and principles of Uechi compare them to the postures and principles of the chinese arts .

then look at all the throws in Uechi-ryu

Break out the Bubishi and start there

really simple stuff . China is a straight line .

And Yes I cross train In BJJ , but dont give up on Uechi

the presumption that grappling never existed In uechi is a farce , do you think the original founders were never grabbed ? , and never considered balance ?

I`m all for cross training , but understand your art , principles and mechanics are there , what more do you need , congruency is important .

Mark could you do a tape on Uechi ryu take downs ? , I for one would appreciate it .

Bill Gets it , Bill could you do a tape On Uechi ryu take downs ?

hey Ask Rick , he has a quite few I know because I use some of them .

Pick up Cartmells book .

Read the Bubishi .

and take as many other classes as you want always keeping your Uechi core in mind .

Oh yeah and take a look at tegumi and kotikitae while your there

Rant off

AAAhmed46 · Post by **AAAhmed46** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:47 pm

the presumption that grappling never existed In uechi is a farce , do you think the original founders were never grabbed ? , and never considered balance ?

j

In those days, people didn't know how to grab, so it's not a farce. Peopld did not know how to use thier thumbs, and did not understand that hitting people the the ground hurts.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:52 pm

, guess I got carried away with the obvious huh

AAAhmed46 · Post by **AAAhmed46** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:00 pm

ACtually it's good that you posted that.

People often miss the obvious.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:25 pm

Dana Sheets wrote:What part of the training described in this thread can accurately be described as fumbling?

Poor choice of words. Maybe best to replace 'fumbling' with trying to 'figure out' where there might well be proven teaching methods we can follow as Mark explains, meaning there are Okinawan masters who can teach us how the grapple figures in Uechi, and or going to a 'specialist' like Joe Pomfret did to achieve proficiency proven to work.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:44 pm

McCarthy writes “ ask your self this question:

Does my style include effective defenses against being seized in a bear hug, put in a head lock, or being chocked to death? Moreover what do I do when I am thrown to the ground?

I would rather, absent having seen what Okinawans can teach me in this instance, go to a Judo or BJJ specialist to learn the moves to deal with those types of attack_ defensive moves that are natural to BJJ, and proven to work as I have seen in the MMA matches by Joey.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:18 am

It`s always about the questions , it think every one should look at that closely .

and there are a lot of good Uechi answers .

But nothing contains everything .

anyone serious needs some fundamental groundwork .

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:26 am

Good post Stryke...

One other thing I learned very quickly while learning 'mat work' in judo_ was how quickly your eyes go 'glassy' _

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:38 am

Those that make things happen

those that watch things happen

and those that dont know whats happening Van

"Anything truly revolutionary is created by a few who see what is true and are willing to live according to that truth; but to discover what is true demands freedom from tradition, which means freedom from all fears."
- Krishnamurti.

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:22 am

Why didnt Kanbun sensei run down the the road to a jujitsu school?.or did he think uechi fight stratergy would never be taken to the ground ?.
When the school was training for 7 hrs per night on uechi, i think thats a quicker way to get um ready .

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:36 pm

Does anyone today, in the Uechi world, really believe he won't be taken down in a street fight?

We must remember a street fight is often an ambush or an attack by multiple opponents.

Now lets talk about what the old Okinawan masters, the current masters, or current teachers of Uechi_ teach, have taught. show or recommend a student TO DO once he is knocked down and the 'bootfest' begins.

Good points to cover.

Even a high power well made firearm is known to have 'malfunctioned' in combat, as an analogy_

What to do next and who's to do it?

M J Brelsford · Post by **M J Brelsford** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 12:58 am

Van.

My thoughts…

I feel many teacher and students are living in a world of false ideas and assumptions.
I believe many dojo’s teach that the attacker will be downed with a simple combination of blocks, one or two kicks, and a few strikes at a fair distance and it will be over. Kanei once mentioned to me his idea and very keen fact that today’s attackers could be, in some cases, in better shape and could be clothed in items that could afford better protection (leather jackets, perhaps, this is what he mentioned).

To this end folks really need a wake up call. Real Uechi makes it money in close range combat. The use of elbows and knees are the starting distance. Close range weapons like the hiraken (and not the lame one with the thumb at the bottom of the fingers) and the shoken will be called into use. The Uechi grip developed from sanchin and conditioning drills is a must at this range also. The grip will then be combined with takedowns, locks, and tearing motions to render the attacker neutral. These actions will take place at very close range and an understanding of how and where to strike is essential. Aggression in the face of danger will be key to survival.

Teachers and students must learn and practice in close fighting and the ability to close the distance in order to even begin to defend themselves in a given situation. They must take the current kumite’s and bunkai’s to a new level. Practice of a more realistic free kumite is a must.

As I learned in the Marines… “There is no such thing as second place in close combat”.

This is indeed something for teacher and students of all levels to ponder.

Mark