Seisan Bunkai takedown???
Moderator: Available
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Stryke
Good post Mark and I agree.
Your post is sobering because, from where I stand, it is a mindset on training that should fuel ongoing exploration and stimulate ‘learning overkill’ in a wide range of response action
Generally it is a given that "you do what you train".
The manner in which you train and how ‘you think the training will work’ and must respond from within your training parameters _ is what conditions a student to respond adequately in a life-or-death situation.
From my personal life experiences, my investigative work _ and training I found that so many practitioners have a limited perception of what they will be facing, who they will be facing, how many they will be facing, the degenerate nature, cunning of the enemy, and the premeditated overwhelming force of the enemy they will be facing.
I did write about our two Uechi brothers ambushed and violently attacked by multiple opponents one night in the dark parking lot abutting the back door of the restaurant they were leaving after work.
One punk
Just today at the Mall I saw something reinforcing these views. A car full of noisy punks had stopped in an isolated corner of the covered parking lot _ a few of them were out of the car and approaching a guy with his wife and kid yelling ‘Hey you ass-hole’ over and over with sinister intent.
I was just getting out of my car, and walked towards the family with my cell phone in one hand dialing 911, and my other hand in my coat pocket around my S&W .38 Centennial, that will fire through a pocket without snagging.
As I called out to them to walk my way, the punks started slapping each other around. We made it safely into the mall and notified security.
I have told the story, a few times, of the case I investigated in Roxbury where this young black belt, leaving his new girl’s apartment one night, was ambushed by the ‘EX’ a Jamaican gang banger_ in the darkened stairs, thrown to the ground, rolled down the stairs and ‘executed’ in the small lobby of the building as he was trying to fight back and get away.
I was at the scene the next day and the blood from his spurting carotid arteries was still on the ceiling from having had his throat Cut.
And my little cousin was shot dead with a head shot in a home invasion.
I have more stories to tell, to include the attack upon me by multiple armed punks and what I had to do to survive, stories of senseless assaults upon clients, and situations of multiple armed punks invading and threatening violence in the work place.
What is true is that most people, generally train for a one-on-one confrontation and with a distorted sense of the necessary force continuum they need to embrace in engagement_
As an example, you talk to most practitioners, and they have no idea of what a "sacrificial lamb" attack is these days, something very much in vogue.
This is where one guy engages the prey and locks him up, and then the others swoop in for the kill. The one being attacked has no clue of what is about to happen.
Most people are not really in touch with the horrors of real violence and make the big mistake of training ‘assumptions’ _
And when it happens, I mean ‘seriously happens’ just watch the meltdown. Too many are fixated with training ‘empty hand’ or ‘hand to hand’ and will not accept the importance to train with a weapon _critical to a force continuum.
The reason why watching Wes Tasker [Filipino Pekiti Tirsia] in action is such an eye opener and working the Red man drills with Dave Young teaches so much about needed tactics and mechanics against multiple attackers.
I have written before that it does no good to tell people that what they trained may have problems associated with it because they have a strong emotional attachment to their training, every one feels his training is the best there is.
Your post is sobering because, from where I stand, it is a mindset on training that should fuel ongoing exploration and stimulate ‘learning overkill’ in a wide range of response action
Generally it is a given that "you do what you train".
The manner in which you train and how ‘you think the training will work’ and must respond from within your training parameters _ is what conditions a student to respond adequately in a life-or-death situation.
From my personal life experiences, my investigative work _ and training I found that so many practitioners have a limited perception of what they will be facing, who they will be facing, how many they will be facing, the degenerate nature, cunning of the enemy, and the premeditated overwhelming force of the enemy they will be facing.
I did write about our two Uechi brothers ambushed and violently attacked by multiple opponents one night in the dark parking lot abutting the back door of the restaurant they were leaving after work.
One punk
before ganging up on one of them and dragging him in the middle of the street so he could be run over by a car. The threat of a gun about to be fired into your body in the next moment does something to a person under attack.why don’t we shoot this M!!@ F@#$
Just today at the Mall I saw something reinforcing these views. A car full of noisy punks had stopped in an isolated corner of the covered parking lot _ a few of them were out of the car and approaching a guy with his wife and kid yelling ‘Hey you ass-hole’ over and over with sinister intent.
I was just getting out of my car, and walked towards the family with my cell phone in one hand dialing 911, and my other hand in my coat pocket around my S&W .38 Centennial, that will fire through a pocket without snagging.
As I called out to them to walk my way, the punks started slapping each other around. We made it safely into the mall and notified security.
I have told the story, a few times, of the case I investigated in Roxbury where this young black belt, leaving his new girl’s apartment one night, was ambushed by the ‘EX’ a Jamaican gang banger_ in the darkened stairs, thrown to the ground, rolled down the stairs and ‘executed’ in the small lobby of the building as he was trying to fight back and get away.
I was at the scene the next day and the blood from his spurting carotid arteries was still on the ceiling from having had his throat Cut.
And my little cousin was shot dead with a head shot in a home invasion.
I have more stories to tell, to include the attack upon me by multiple armed punks and what I had to do to survive, stories of senseless assaults upon clients, and situations of multiple armed punks invading and threatening violence in the work place.
What is true is that most people, generally train for a one-on-one confrontation and with a distorted sense of the necessary force continuum they need to embrace in engagement_
As an example, you talk to most practitioners, and they have no idea of what a "sacrificial lamb" attack is these days, something very much in vogue.
This is where one guy engages the prey and locks him up, and then the others swoop in for the kill. The one being attacked has no clue of what is about to happen.
Most people are not really in touch with the horrors of real violence and make the big mistake of training ‘assumptions’ _
And when it happens, I mean ‘seriously happens’ just watch the meltdown. Too many are fixated with training ‘empty hand’ or ‘hand to hand’ and will not accept the importance to train with a weapon _critical to a force continuum.
The reason why watching Wes Tasker [Filipino Pekiti Tirsia] in action is such an eye opener and working the Red man drills with Dave Young teaches so much about needed tactics and mechanics against multiple attackers.
I have written before that it does no good to tell people that what they trained may have problems associated with it because they have a strong emotional attachment to their training, every one feels his training is the best there is.
Van
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maxwell ainley
- Posts: 1690
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: england
For uechi-ryu the art of breakfall is a must ,a first requirement ,or feedback from being takendown ,whilst we may instinctivly keep our feet on the ground as per uechi kata as the notable writers indicate ,at some point you will or could end up being slamed hard and fast into the dirt 
.
Before I came to uechi I was up to black belt level in wado ,which incorperated the jujutsu of the founder within its fabric ,we were grounded in the basics ,were a co instructor and friend eliminated hospitalized a formidable fighter ,from of the ground after being taken down .
My own study of uechi makes use of a release in every mortal action ,a Point being ,Albert intiated a release from is opponents grip enroute to the dirt against a some one coming in for the kill.
.Before I came to uechi I was up to black belt level in wado ,which incorperated the jujutsu of the founder within its fabric ,we were grounded in the basics ,were a co instructor and friend eliminated hospitalized a formidable fighter ,from of the ground after being taken down .
My own study of uechi makes use of a release in every mortal action ,a Point being ,Albert intiated a release from is opponents grip enroute to the dirt against a some one coming in for the kill.
max ainley
[quote]
I have written before that it does no good to tell people that what they trained may have problems associated with it because they have a strong emotional attachment to their training, every one feels his training is the best there is.[quote]
Actually it does, some people have already gone through that phaze, i found rick like this, by learning faults in my previous training.
Of coarse, even rick's training is not 'perfect' so i have enough sense to see what is there and not there, though i have to say i have a bias that leans toward the WKS approach, and i guess we all do toward the style/school we train at.
I guess what matters is that you can ask yourself and answer "Why do i train in what i train(style,school)" and actually have an answer.
I have written before that it does no good to tell people that what they trained may have problems associated with it because they have a strong emotional attachment to their training, every one feels his training is the best there is.[quote]
Actually it does, some people have already gone through that phaze, i found rick like this, by learning faults in my previous training.
Of coarse, even rick's training is not 'perfect' so i have enough sense to see what is there and not there, though i have to say i have a bias that leans toward the WKS approach, and i guess we all do toward the style/school we train at.
I guess what matters is that you can ask yourself and answer "Why do i train in what i train(style,school)" and actually have an answer.
Best way to demonstrate to yourself and to others what works and what doesn’t, in Uechi training, cross training, whatever_ is to get yourself involved in scenario testing, like the Redman drills by Dave Young who, because of his police training and experience, will mimic real life attacks with extreme physical and emotional impact_ as well as ‘environmental factors’ that heavily influence your skills under your moments of chaos.
All the theories blow out the window. Take my word for it. I have been through real life ‘gutter’ fights and learned some serious lessons.
You will quickly know when you are about to die in those scenarios, out of breath and gasping for air while you are being stomped to death.
That simple. And from my point of view_
if you don’t incorporate a weapons continuum in your training_ if you are attacked by multiple opponents [the prevailing norm these days] all the Uechi or empty hands knowledge you have won’t do you much good.
All the theories blow out the window. Take my word for it. I have been through real life ‘gutter’ fights and learned some serious lessons.
You will quickly know when you are about to die in those scenarios, out of breath and gasping for air while you are being stomped to death.
That simple. And from my point of view_
if you don’t incorporate a weapons continuum in your training_ if you are attacked by multiple opponents [the prevailing norm these days] all the Uechi or empty hands knowledge you have won’t do you much good.
Van
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f.Channell
- Posts: 3541
- Joined: Thu Oct 21, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Valhalla
What's interesting about examining the sport side of grappling is that you have percentages like with any sport.
By examining the techniques that are most effective in the international arena you can see 2-3 that you should have in your toolbag.
I give you one of the most winning Judo athletes in the last 30 years or so.
Yamashita.
http://www.judoinfo.com/yamashita2.htm
Some of the top 5 techniques are ground fighting techniques, so if you eliminate those you have Uchimata and o'soto gari.
Two good techniques are all you need if you can do them real well.
Another thing I found, is the one you like the most, doesn't always work the best for you.
F.
By examining the techniques that are most effective in the international arena you can see 2-3 that you should have in your toolbag.
I give you one of the most winning Judo athletes in the last 30 years or so.
Yamashita.
http://www.judoinfo.com/yamashita2.htm
Some of the top 5 techniques are ground fighting techniques, so if you eliminate those you have Uchimata and o'soto gari.
Two good techniques are all you need if you can do them real well.
Another thing I found, is the one you like the most, doesn't always work the best for you.
F.
Sans Peur Ne Obliviscaris
www.hinghamkarate.com
www.hinghamkarate.com
Not to hijack....these contests are a regular thing; I have participated in and seen quite a few of them; the downside is that they have them for teenagers as well. Little regard for safety, often when the students get bloodied or Ko'd one of the teachers (the guys in the chairs) will drag them off to the side and after a few pressure or acupuncture points they get up, have an ice cream and rejoin the crowd.MikeK wrote:Meanwhile , back in the dojang[/url]
FYI the sign in the window indicates this was a kickboxing school; frequently local clubs will have challenges between friendly yet 'rival' schools.
Regards;
Scott Taylor
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RACastanet
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Marcus
I've pretty much tried to share what I know as I teach. Lately I've been getting more interest in me putting my ideas and thoughts down in video. I'll do what I can.
To all
IMO the blessing and the curse of Uechi being a great "sport" style on Okinawa is that people's minds get frozen on that being what "it" is. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to challenge that in a New York second. Just the idea that we can't use any of our Uechi hand weapons in a "sport" match should be a clue.
Lots of my ideas about what Uechi could be came from a fellow who approached me to learn about Uechi Ryu. He was the Green Beret who had studied Goju with Gosei Yamaguchi and Kimo Wall, judo as a child, and aikido with several. He also had trained in an assortment of traditional and modern weapons. He had Kanei's kyohon, and wanted to tap into my brain. He pretty much had a "big picture" figured out, and just wanted to steal what he could from Uechi.
We had about 2.5 years where we trained weekly. I probably got an order of magnitude more from him than he did from me.
Our training was more realistic (multiple partner scenarios, mixed striking and grappling, weapon kumite, etc.) because he was formerly a professional soldier. He had walked the talk, and knew how to translate a style into what mattered.
I don't know... I've always seen the Uechi in other styles. I often can't tell where my Uechi ends and my cross training begins. When you begin to understand the big picture, all the boundaries between styles begin to look a bit silly.
Over the last few days on my work road trip and my Easter weekend, I got to thinking about why I was a bit irked at first when folks kept suggesting we needed to go to other styles to learn throws or to infuse ukemi into our curriculum. Then it hit me. I had forgotten that AFTER I incorporated ukemi into our curriculum, I subsequently achieved teacher status in aikido. So I am fully qualified to teach ukemi both through school of hard knocks and because I have the fancy piece of paper that says I'm a Grand Poobah somethingorother.
Again, it's become so obvious to me after a while that I fail to see the boundaries that others think are there. "That's not Uechi!" makes me want to smack someone. 
To some extent, I think this is where Mark's head is, and why he and I seem to see eye-to-eye on a lot of this.
Do I learn a lot when working with someone such as Joey in his BJJ classes? Of course. (Big "Duh!" there...) I learn a lot from ALL great martial artists. On the other hand, I got my butt out on the matt against Joey - in front of everyone - in my first ever class with him. It's where you get to after a while. You may not be a master at anything in particular, but after a while you should at least be able to hold a "conversation" in any legitimate martial art. The fundamental principles we all operate under don't vary all that much - IMO.
- Bill
I've pretty much tried to share what I know as I teach. Lately I've been getting more interest in me putting my ideas and thoughts down in video. I'll do what I can.
To all
IMO the blessing and the curse of Uechi being a great "sport" style on Okinawa is that people's minds get frozen on that being what "it" is. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to challenge that in a New York second. Just the idea that we can't use any of our Uechi hand weapons in a "sport" match should be a clue.
Lots of my ideas about what Uechi could be came from a fellow who approached me to learn about Uechi Ryu. He was the Green Beret who had studied Goju with Gosei Yamaguchi and Kimo Wall, judo as a child, and aikido with several. He also had trained in an assortment of traditional and modern weapons. He had Kanei's kyohon, and wanted to tap into my brain. He pretty much had a "big picture" figured out, and just wanted to steal what he could from Uechi.
We had about 2.5 years where we trained weekly. I probably got an order of magnitude more from him than he did from me.
Our training was more realistic (multiple partner scenarios, mixed striking and grappling, weapon kumite, etc.) because he was formerly a professional soldier. He had walked the talk, and knew how to translate a style into what mattered.
I don't know... I've always seen the Uechi in other styles. I often can't tell where my Uechi ends and my cross training begins. When you begin to understand the big picture, all the boundaries between styles begin to look a bit silly.
Over the last few days on my work road trip and my Easter weekend, I got to thinking about why I was a bit irked at first when folks kept suggesting we needed to go to other styles to learn throws or to infuse ukemi into our curriculum. Then it hit me. I had forgotten that AFTER I incorporated ukemi into our curriculum, I subsequently achieved teacher status in aikido. So I am fully qualified to teach ukemi both through school of hard knocks and because I have the fancy piece of paper that says I'm a Grand Poobah somethingorother.
Again, it's become so obvious to me after a while that I fail to see the boundaries that others think are there. "That's not Uechi!" makes me want to smack someone.
To some extent, I think this is where Mark's head is, and why he and I seem to see eye-to-eye on a lot of this.
Do I learn a lot when working with someone such as Joey in his BJJ classes? Of course. (Big "Duh!" there...) I learn a lot from ALL great martial artists. On the other hand, I got my butt out on the matt against Joey - in front of everyone - in my first ever class with him. It's where you get to after a while. You may not be a master at anything in particular, but after a while you should at least be able to hold a "conversation" in any legitimate martial art. The fundamental principles we all operate under don't vary all that much - IMO.
- Bill
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Stryke
good stuff BillI've pretty much tried to share what I know as I teach. Lately I've been getting more interest in me putting my ideas and thoughts down in video. I'll do what I can.
and good post .
doesnt it all then come down to how we promote more folks to see the big picture .
encourage more freedom , and allow folks to move away from the sport model perhaps .
the ten million dollar question I suppose .
Re: Nice video
I think I did see a key lock sneak in once.RACastanet wrote:They sure like the arm bar.
Rich
What I liked about what these guys were doing (based on the video) was how quick they engaged and stay engaged. I hate dancing I wonder if the pace of the match generally dictated what finish they were using.
The other thing I liked about what they did was how logical the grappling fit in with the high kicks. They know that a high kick to the head or neck can work, and that a high kick can get caught so you will be hitting the ground.
I was dreaming of the past...
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
The video clip was posted by MadMonk108. (Interesting name...) Here's what he posted.
As I've stated earlier in this thread, I've seen other styles from Korea (Myo Sim, HKD) that have made the mix work.
Two critiques of the style:
1) No inside striking game to speak of. Many Korean stylists suk at their hand skills, knees, elbows, etc. When I sparred them in tournaments, I knew to get in on them ASAP. Once inside the kicking range, they were like fish out of water.
2) Not much in the way of defenses against the grappling and decent stances. No defense at all in fact...
However they're coming along quite nicely. What they have as an "inside game" for now is their penchant for going straight to groundfighting.
There was a debate on the thread as to whether that was a wooden floor or new mats made to look like a wooden floor often seen in Korea. Interesting... If I were to do something like this and wanted a firm floor, I'd do a spring loaded floor like you find in gymnastics or even some boxing and grappling rings.
One more thing... That was a school tournament.
- Bill
He also states that the style is a decade old, and mostly a mix of judo and TKD.格/격/Kyuk means a style or set standard for something.
鬪/투/Too means to fight or to compete
技/기/Gi means technique or skill.
Thus, 格鬪技/격투기/Kyuktoogi...Style Competition Techniques.
Like Sanda, it can be used as a venue for fighters of different styles to compete under rules that are relatively unbiased. Like Sanshou, it can be trained and competed in on its own merits.
As I've stated earlier in this thread, I've seen other styles from Korea (Myo Sim, HKD) that have made the mix work.
Two critiques of the style:
1) No inside striking game to speak of. Many Korean stylists suk at their hand skills, knees, elbows, etc. When I sparred them in tournaments, I knew to get in on them ASAP. Once inside the kicking range, they were like fish out of water.
2) Not much in the way of defenses against the grappling and decent stances. No defense at all in fact...
However they're coming along quite nicely. What they have as an "inside game" for now is their penchant for going straight to groundfighting.
There was a debate on the thread as to whether that was a wooden floor or new mats made to look like a wooden floor often seen in Korea. Interesting... If I were to do something like this and wanted a firm floor, I'd do a spring loaded floor like you find in gymnastics or even some boxing and grappling rings.
One more thing... That was a school tournament.
- Bill
I think individual martial artists who cross-train always end up seeing inter-connections. All is in Sanchin. All is in Uechi-Ryu. Style boundaries are superficial. That's great, but I think one of the things Van was concerned about was when and how the skills which are important for self-defense are taught. We have a formal curriculum which in essence shared by virtually every Uechi instructor. It begins with Sanchin. I watch George's #18b,c,d DVDs, the OKIKUKAI DVD, Alan Dollar's DVDs, and the one of Gushi that I have, and I see virtually the same curriculum. That's a good thing. It helps to establish what can be expected from every Uechi instructor. Sometimes you get more than that, e.g. from Bill and Dana and everybody else who cross-trains. Yes, it's probably true that everything is in there, but are most instructors getting it and passing it along? Or are most people typically going to have to cross-train to get it in their first 20 years of martial arts? I'm thinking that the so-called "style boundaries" tend to mean something when it comes to the statistical question of average competency of instructors to teach a given technique. Consider an average Uechi sandan (not one that particularly trained under Bill). What do you expect them to know about grappling? Why do you expect them to know it? Should this average knowledge be increased or is it already about right? One reason it might need to be increased by formally adding to the kyu curriculum elements is if, for example, Tegumi was traditionally assumed to be part of every student's background.
Mike
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Excellent points made here.
FWIW, we can expect many people coming into the dojo to have done high school wrestling. I was lucky enough to have had 2 varsity college wrestlers come train with me at UVa when going to graduate and law schools respectively. Man what a joy it was to teach them... And both ended up as longterm Uechika and occasional Uechi instructors.
My son is doing wrestling now, and has finished his second year in 8th grade. While I can't get him to do a super formal Uechi stint, I remind him a lot of the skills I see him employ on the mat that essentially come from Uechi kata. He has no idea where they came from, and to some extent it really doesn't matter. We just reinforce the principles of movement in the kata.
That being stated...
THIS is why I think ukemi should be a REQUIREMENT on ALL Uechi Dan tests where kotekitae is required. In my view, this is a core competency. My goal was to make it so no student of mine was afraid of the floor. Face your fears, and then get on with what you're good at. And then once fear of falling goes away and you can fight your way down and back up again, you'll be surprised how all the application possibilties start welling forth.
My approach to teaching martial arts came about because I lost most of my students when teaching at UVa. They were with me 3 or 4 years, and then gone. Occasionally I could get one to stick around for grad, law, or med school. With that in mind, I made sure they got a broad training in martial basics in my dojo. I taught Goju's Gekisai kata (with bunkai). I choreographed a kicking form with all of karate's basic kicks. We did ukemi. Once having left UVa, many of them were able to continue on in the styles found in their cities (when no Uechi was available). In my view, they are teaching success stories.
Repeat after me.... Ukemi is a core competency. Ukemi is a core competency...
What say you, Uechi world? Are you ready to get on with it? And if you need help getting started, I'll supply it for free for the price of a plane ticket and a place to sleep for a few days.
And I'm not the only game in town here. I got started with people practicing their skills in my immediate vicinity.
- Bill
FWIW, we can expect many people coming into the dojo to have done high school wrestling. I was lucky enough to have had 2 varsity college wrestlers come train with me at UVa when going to graduate and law schools respectively. Man what a joy it was to teach them... And both ended up as longterm Uechika and occasional Uechi instructors.
My son is doing wrestling now, and has finished his second year in 8th grade. While I can't get him to do a super formal Uechi stint, I remind him a lot of the skills I see him employ on the mat that essentially come from Uechi kata. He has no idea where they came from, and to some extent it really doesn't matter. We just reinforce the principles of movement in the kata.
That being stated...
THIS is why I think ukemi should be a REQUIREMENT on ALL Uechi Dan tests where kotekitae is required. In my view, this is a core competency. My goal was to make it so no student of mine was afraid of the floor. Face your fears, and then get on with what you're good at. And then once fear of falling goes away and you can fight your way down and back up again, you'll be surprised how all the application possibilties start welling forth.
My approach to teaching martial arts came about because I lost most of my students when teaching at UVa. They were with me 3 or 4 years, and then gone. Occasionally I could get one to stick around for grad, law, or med school. With that in mind, I made sure they got a broad training in martial basics in my dojo. I taught Goju's Gekisai kata (with bunkai). I choreographed a kicking form with all of karate's basic kicks. We did ukemi. Once having left UVa, many of them were able to continue on in the styles found in their cities (when no Uechi was available). In my view, they are teaching success stories.
Repeat after me.... Ukemi is a core competency. Ukemi is a core competency...
What say you, Uechi world? Are you ready to get on with it? And if you need help getting started, I'll supply it for free for the price of a plane ticket and a place to sleep for a few days.
And I'm not the only game in town here. I got started with people practicing their skills in my immediate vicinity.
- Bill
Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
