This is legal?

[Bill Glasheen]

I wish I knew where he got'em all; cause I want some of them for myself.

While many secretly share the frustrations expressed by those bumper stickers, they most definitely are "over the top" - to say the least.

Would you care to share what is appealing about them? I promise - I'll keep the reaction to your thoughts at bay. This is just a bit of a fact-finding mission. I and others probably would love to know what goes on in the heads of people who print and display thoughts such as these.

- Bill

[mhosea]

I wish I knew where he got'em all; cause I want some of them for myself.

While many secretly share the frustrations expressed by those bumper stickers, they most definitely are "over the top" - to say the least.

Would you care to share what is appealing about them? I promise - I'll keep the reaction to your thoughts at bay. This is just a bit of a fact-finding mission. I and others probably would love to know what goes on in the heads of people who print and display thoughts such as these.

Let me preface my remarks by saying that I am offended by the bumper stickers, but I'm not exactly shocked.

This guy (I'm going with male on statistical probability as a disabled veteran) has identified his enemy by some defining characteristics, muslim and arab, it would seem, and is engaged in the time-honored practice of dehumanizing the enemy. He probably doesn't know that his identification of the enemy is ridiculously over-broad, but he didn't come up with it all on his own. Al Qaeda terrorists claim to speak for and act on behalf of all muslims, and they imply that Allah supports their actions.

However, his way of thinking is a disaster. It's exactly what Al Qaeda wants. They wrote guys like him off from day one, but those who are given to extreme expressions may yet serve Al Qaeda's purposes by being part of a movement that drives a wedge between the muslim and non-muslim worlds (from the other side).

[AAAhmed46]

I wish I knew where he got'em all; cause I want some of them for myself.

While many secretly share the frustrations expressed by those bumper stickers, they most definitely are "over the top" - to say the least.

Would you care to share what is appealing about them? I promise - I'll keep the reaction to your thoughts at bay. This is just a bit of a fact-finding mission. I and others probably would love to know what goes on in the heads of people who print and display thoughts such as these.

Let me preface my remarks by saying that I am offended by the bumper stickers, but I'm not exactly shocked.

This guy (I'm going with male on statistical probability as a disabled veteran) has identified his enemy by some defining characteristics, muslim and arab, it would seem, and is engaged in the time-honored practice of dehumanizing the enemy. He probably doesn't know that his identification of the enemy is ridiculously over-broad, but he didn't come up with it all on his own. Al Qaeda terrorists claim to speak for and act on behalf of all muslims, and they imply that Allah supports their actions.

However, his way of thinking is a disaster. It's exactly what Al Qaeda wants. They wrote guys like him off from day one, but those who are given to extreme expressions may yet serve Al Qaeda's purposes by being part of a movement that drives a wedge between the muslim and non-muslim worlds (from the other side).

According to the stats posted, it is unfortunatly happening.

[mhosea]

According to the stats posted, it is unfortunatly happening.

There's a lot going on there, some of it based on things that happened centuries ago, some of it based on things that are more recent. I've taken some of these tests myself, however, and they were indeed about FEELINGS, not about things that you could control directly, like what you actually say and do.

[Bill Glasheen]

Mike and Adam

Please be careful with the use of your quote function. You attributed what I said to "stuff." Using nested quotes is very tricky.

Being a moderator, I was able to "fix" your posts without it even registering. But I just wanted to let you know that I did that.

Carry on!

- Bill

[mhosea]

Mike and Adam

Please be careful with the use of your quote function. You attributed what I said to "stuff."

Mea culpa. I must have deleted the first quote= line rather than the second. I probably got confused switching after visiting the all-karate forums, which has the peculiar property of having quotes in a separate pane and having the outermost attribution "implied". Anyway, Adam just quoted me in entirety, so not his fault.

[Gene DeMambro]

Would you care to share what is appealing about them?

I am not answering for Stuff at all. But if I were to side with him and our friend with the bumper stickers, I might cite the following. These are some rationalizations that just come to my head at the moment. Again, I am not taking his side, but just trying to come up with "pro-bumper sticker" reasons:

• Historical use of terrorism to further the ends of Islamists fanatics. This continues to this day. This includes kidnapppings, airplane and cruise ship hijackings, bombings and the murder of civilians, government officials and soldiers alike.
• The (sometimes violent) takeover of governments to create Islamic states. These nations always seem to be at odds with the rest of the civilized world. Muslim militias just recently gained control of Somalia, forcing the secular gunmen to surrender. Muslims and Christians are still battling it out in other African countries.
• The appalling record of civil and human rights abuses
• The appalling inability of moderates and civilized Muslims to curb the actions of the fanatics and extremists. Even in nations where there have been sucesses, the extremists still continue to pop up and try and gain control.
• The continued droning on and on about how Israel and the Jews are the root of all that is wrong with the world. Get off the damn broken record already....
• The intolerance shown to non-Muslims in many countries. The Taliban destroyed artifacts and icons important to Hindus in Afghanistan. Christians cannot eat in public during the day in Saudi Arabia during Ramadan.
• The assassination of Robert Kennedy.

This is but a short list. Again, don't take this as siding withthese positions.

Gene

[AAAhmed46]

The appalling inability of moderates and civilized Muslims to curb the actions of the fanatics and extremists. Even in nations where there have been sucesses, the extremists still continue to pop up and try and gain control.

Im not going to argue with you on other points, though i will on this.

What do you expect us to do? We have had educational workshops for the youth, weve had anti-terrorism speeches in the mosque.

Everytime police get a 'tip' whether it is in america or canada or britian that someone may be planning an attack, the tip is usually given by a muslim who seen or heard wierd stuff happening.

What do you want us to do?





And islamic fundamentalism has existed since the 1800s.

But it was almost always looked down upon by most of the muslim world for many years.....

Until the cold war.



In muslims countries, moderates dont have a voice.

Who helped create wahabism? The saudi royal family. The arab world is covered with monarchs. The population is not a free one.

So how will moderates even WORK if they have absolutly no control? Or voice? In north america alot is being done.

In toronto,when the first steps to stopping the sickening terrorist plot was when a man named Mohammed Robert Heft phoned CSIS or the RCMP i dont know what, but he tipped off the authrities and they began investigating.

Did CNN report this? No.

His tip probably saved many canadian lives, this MUSLIM man tipped off CSIS(most likely he talked to them) to save lives.





But it gets dismissed.

I remember when a fatwa was given in north america by north american mosques.

Lots of people on THIS very same message board disregarded it.

Why?

[mhosea]

Why?

Don't know. I also don't know what to do about the Palestinian conflict or clerics/leaders overseas who preach hate and yet have massive followings. The older I get, the less confidence I have in the facile solutions that I can cook up in 5 minutes of thinking. You can reason with individuals, but populations as a whole seem to respond not so much to reason as emotion. Anyway *I* do appreciate that Muslims in North America are doing what they can to help. I've had several Muslim friends (mostly Arab) in my life from grade school to professional life, and every single one of them has been a peace-loving person of the highest integrity and decency. One cannot extrapolate to entire groups, but it doesn't surprise ME that terrorists find it more difficult to operate here in North America now that the Muslims here are on the lookout for them. I expect foreign terrorists are avoiding contact with NA Muslims.

[Bill Glasheen]

In the end, we're dealing with people and individuals. In every group, there are some serious whackos.

I had an Indonesian Muslim as karate student (Farino, or "Reno" as we called him) back during the 9/11 period. While the rest of the world was wringing their hands about the Muslims, I was kidding Reno about how much he looked like Muhammed Atta. I told him I was going to help him execute the next major terrorist plot, and that I wanted credit for his training. What are you gonna do, eh? You deal with people one at a time, and give them the respect they deserve until they prove themselves undeserving of such. Some of you who were at a certain Khoury school promotional circa 2003 may remember how well Reno did on his shodan exam. Van in particular was impressed. For a while, Reno was the soul of our group. I never forget one of his favorite sayings - "Cry in the dojo; laugh on the battlefield!"

Reno went to Indonesia on a break from his job at Capital One, and never came back. Methinks his mom got him married off to a nice girl.

Who helped create wahabism? The saudi royal family. The arab world is covered with monarchs. The population is not a free one.

Indeed. And this is all the more reason for us to continue with the present U.S. policy of supporting free governments in the Middle East. It's a very long, painful row to hoe. But failure here isn't an option.

- Bill

[AAAhmed46]

OOne thing that truly distrubes me about saudi arabia is that it was the birthplace of islam and the location of Mecca.

Yet...the saudi royal families very existence, title, policy are an affront to islamic principles.


Monarchy is CLEARLY frowned upon in the quran.

But dont bring it up publically in saudi arabia, otherwise you will get killed.

Im serious, these kings and princes could do so much to elevate the position of the muslim world.

What do they do? They collect tax money, fly to Dubai and gamble and wench and drink(wealthy woman are the same)

YET DESPITE THIS: They helped wahabism grow, and in the cold war when islamic fanatics were somehow growing at alarming rates, the saudi royal family took advantage of it.
Thier suffering now with terrorist attacks, but it they helped contribute to it.

Can a moderate act in this situation?

Libya isnt just horrible in it's treatment of human rights and foriegners, it supresses ALL religion. Christian, muslim, Jew, the government of Libya will crush you if you show a powerful religious following.

[AAAhmed46]

Why?

Don't know. I also don't know what to do about the Palestinian conflict or clerics/leaders overseas who preach hate and yet have massive followings. The older I get, the less confidence I have in the facile solutions that I can cook up in 5 minutes of thinking. You can reason with individuals, but populations as a whole seem to respond not so much to reason as emotion. Anyway *I* do appreciate that Muslims in North America are doing what they can to help. I've had several Muslim friends (mostly Arab) in my life from grade school to professional life, and every single one of them has been a peace-loving person of the highest integrity and decency. One cannot extrapolate to entire groups, but it doesn't surprise ME that terrorists find it more difficult to operate here in North America now that the Muslims here are on the lookout for them. I expect foreign terrorists are avoiding contact with NA Muslims.

The west bank and Gaza are not in very good shape. The only great resoarce they had was thier strawberrys and even those are now rotting now.

They follow these men like cows because they are in despair.

People do two things in despair: They either completlely regect god(ie the growth and prosper of post-modern literature and existentialism after the second and first world war)
Or they grow closer to religion to soothe thier problems.
When people are in such despair, they look for a way out, they look for hope to counter the despair.

Thus it is easy to dupe them into believing the most absurd of ideas because they are clinging to anything they can keep. No matter how retarded.

[AAAhmed46]

I expect foreign terrorists are avoiding contact with NA Muslims.

l

They would probably kidnap us!

[Mary S]

http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2006 ... block.html

[stuff]

I have wanted to post a reply for months, however, time and slow internet also I did not wish to post in haste and have what I state to come across as offensive.
Since first posting on this thread much has happened, especially in regards to free speech.

My desire to have the bumper stickers was only on a collectors' value, after viewing them again, they are cheap black and white of the homemade variety and have little value except to express the man's opinion or frustration.

On free speech:
To the guy with the bumper stickers; if the local mosque gets torched, don't cry when the FBI comes to talk to you about your advertised opinion. Or to find you are on their list of suspected arsonists.

To Mel Gibson; up yours braveheart. See Veough; "Dennis Leary hates Mel Gibson" it's a barrel of laughs.

To Bill Imus; if a bunch of very tall black ladies converge on your studio or are waiting in the parking lot when you leave work after your next broadcast and proceed to beat the living sh*t out of you don't cry about it.

In this country you are free to speak your mind, whether or not you really have a mind to speak with. But remember most importantly."You will in all in all be held accountable for whatever you say. Without fail some authority will bring you to task if you offend someone or something."
The way it should be.