Sanchin

[nosib]

Fivedragons,
Seven years ago 12/13/01 on E-Budo.com forum
Mark started a sanchin thread similar to the one here.
Pretty much the same song and dance as here...ended
up insulting someone because they weren't waist deep
in oriental attachments with required documentations.


Bill, Jim said that Kanei was grabbing strong(like Nakahodo)
and exceptionally fast with his techniques.

[Glenn]

I believe there's some old posts from years ago where Toyama Sensei spoke through his student on Oki of Kanbun having contact or communication with Shushiwa. That was years ago though so don't quote me. A search of old threads may uncover it though. Clearly whatever happened in China with the loss of a life made it difficult for Kanbun to continue his training with his sensei.

I just did a search but could not find that. Doesn't mean it is not there, just that I could not find it if it is. I have seen stories that Kanbun continued to interact with Shushiwa while he remained in China, and found mention of that a few times in previous posts. Kanbun reportedly was teaching in Nansoe, a couple hundred miles away from Shushiwa, so he is said to have made either annual or semi-annual (depending on the source of the story) pilgrimages to Shushiwa. I do not recall seeing anything indicating that Kanbun was able to maintain any kind of contact with Shushiwa after he left China however. This is not surprising, given the times. For one thing, China and Japan had increasing hostilities throughout the early 20th century, making personal communication difficult at best.

[Rick Wilson]

Mark, I think clearly there was some misunderstanding somewhere. I don’t believe anyone ever intended to insult your kids. Certainly not 5D. I just don’t see it.

Mark, I wish you would post video clips showing striking.

Sometimes we can show much better than we can ever put it down on paper.

Folk I have had the pleasure of being on a dojo floor with Mark and when it comes to generating power in a strike this man knows what he is talking about.

He KNOWS how to generate power and short power which is more important to Uechi in-close fighting.

Mark and I are both of the stubborn opinionated variety and that seems to piss people off for some reason.

In fact we have pissed each other off at times over the years but we always get past it because we both have a passion for Uechi and martial arts.

Mark please find a way to post some video of the striking mechanics you see for Uechi. I believe people would find it valuable material.

[Bill Glasheen]

As far as the list Mark had up I think I counted 11 of those Okinawans and Americans I've trained with, I'd say no two do Sanchin exactly the same. Two of the Americans I've trained with, themselves or their direct students, train hip movement in Kata. Takara Sensei did not tell me to not use my hip to empower the strike in August of 2004. Neither did Shinjo Sensei in 2003. Of course I can do Sanchin without the hip movement, depends on the goal of what I'm trying to do with the kata.

Thanks for the post.

I've trained with 10 on his list, and a number of folks (Okinawan and non-Okianwan) not on the list. And I agree with your assessments and share your experiences.

The first person really to open my eyes up to the potential depth and breadth of Uechi Ryu was Takamiyagi. I spent an entire week with him, and he repeatedly emphasized the need for adding dynamic range in the system. It was a breath of fresh air to me, having practiced a number of martial arts before entering a Uechi dojo. And Takamiyagi's English is VERY good. (He teaches it back home.)

True story though... in the entire week I was with him, he made one translation mistake. He told me that the word mushin meant "absent mind." I had to explain to him the subtle difference between absent mind and empty mind in the English language. No problem for me though. In all of my graduate school, I had maybe one out of five professors who had English as a first language. Comparatively speaking, Shiggy's English was phenomenally good.

- Bill

[maxwell ainley]

Remember its not me saying Kanbun taught slowly with accuracy , it was Kanei

NEB, I am not implying from accuracy you get a bunch of clones ,you don't .we have in any performance style to take into account what the individual apprehends over time ,this can't really be avoided .

The Shu stage ;our apprehending will be of this cloth ,and it will be all individual ,a great deal of martial arts get stuck at this stage ,in other words lots of viewing understanding is held quite secure within this concept.

Remember Kanbun was teaching for several hours on a evening ,compare this with the typical hr or hr and a half ,two or three times per week ,no comparison .

My point is under those curcumstances there stands a greater chance of transmission of skills ,my own craft apprenticeship indicates 8 or 10 hrs a day with my craftsman teacher gave me a far greater opportunty to absorbe his instructions and teachings , if it had been hr a day it could have taken twenty year to absorbe the craft .

GLEN , most likely Kanbun would have completed his apprenticeship with Shu sensei ,in similar fashion to the above ,all day every day input ,completing an apprenticeship means first of all ,you are now capable of working under your own steam ,up to a point you are on your own .

Toyama Sensei" Kanbun would instruct each senior on a individual basis for a twenty min period ,daily ".

[fivedragons]

I'm going to post a little diversion here. This is a great thread, and it will continue as long as people have things to contribute, but this post belongs right here.

This has more to do with sanchin and karate than how someone performs the movements.

I'd like to thank everyone who backed me up, and voiced there opinion that I didn't mean to insult Mark's children. But I won't because you were all just expressing your honest opinions regarding what transpired. That is reality.

I was confused by what happened, and then I became steadily more and more enraged at the thought of someone accusing me of something that I just don't have in me to do.

But I just figured out exactly what Mark was thinking and why he took offense.

Earlier in the thread, Bill made a friendly reference to Mark's children, who he apparently knows, or knows of. Mark read this, and then proceeded to read one of my posts, which contained the line "What are these Krazy Kids doing with their hips"

Mark saw the two posts as being linked, and read "Krazy kids" as referring to his children, who Bill had previously referred to.

The fact that no one else seems to have interpreted my post this way, is because everyone here is used to my style and propensity for jumping all over the place in my thoughts. Also, you are familiar with my moral stance from thousands of past posts, while Mark doesn't know who I am.

Apparently Mark was done with the thread and came back because some unnamed person alerted him that something was wrong. When someone emails you to tell you that someone is insulting your children, and you return to a thread that has taken an antagonistic turn, and you see words that link up in your mind with something that has already been posted, you will most likely interpret things in the way they have been suggested to you, by the mysterious e-mailing ally.

Mark has no way of knowing that I have responded to something he has said about me and then continued in the same post to switch voices and post a satire concerning an old conservative man in the late 50's - early 60's commenting on the differences between the way he was brought up and the way the younger generation is finding their way into adulthood.

So, when I wrote "Krazy Kids", I was referring to those who are exploring and finding their own way in martial arts, through different teachings, different experiences, the stuff life is made of.

This is a post about empathy, understanding of human nature, and awareness, which will always have it's limits, no matter how aware we might become. This is also a post about communication, and especially the pitfalls of this medium.

[fivedragons]

On to part two.

There's a third party involved in this scenario, unknown.

Now keep in mind, the mysterious e-mail alerting ally could be someone who is posting on this thread, maybe a dedicated lurker, who knows?

Interesting to empathize, or find the part of your mind that can relate to this person who is energized and has found a righteous purpose in alerting his ally of something that is guaranteed to elicit a passionate response, a taste of excitement. An intuitive feeling that here is an opportunity for bonding.

When the perceived insult happened, the response time was very quick.

Now that I have published an apology and several people known and unknown to Mark have stated that they don't see an attack, there is no response.

The last couple of paragraphs I wrote could be seen as suggesting a certain conclusion in regards to the mysterious e-mailing ally, but the reality is there is nothing but projection.

Because I don't know anything about this person, and his or her motivations for doing whatever they do.

And that's okay.

[f.Channell]

Gordi Breyette put up most of the Kanubun info if that helps.
Usually on Vans forum.

[Bill Glasheen]

fivedragons

I've been on these Forums for many years, and have seen it all. Both Mark and Rick for example are people with whom I have had lengthy, passionate discussions online. We get over ourselves.

You've explained yourself well and apologized when you didn't even need to. You did nothing wrong. You are a better man than most.

That doesn't mean there weren't testy exchanges in this thread. There were... and people spoke their minds on all sides. Good.

It is done and past. We shall put it behind us.

For what it's worth, the concept of "Dojo Roundtable" comes from the Harkness method of teaching that I experienced while at Phillips Exeter. Most classes were taught in a round table format. The teacher sat at a position that was no different than anyone else's place at the table. On the one hand it was expected that the teacher's words could be challenged at any point. On the other hand, all students were thrust into a position of obligation and responsibility. You were expected to participate and you didn't dare come to class unprepared.

This isn't a Forum about people; it is a Forum about ideas. It's not a sparring match except to the extent that the best ideas win.

Mark will post again when Mark is ready. Don't interpret his silence to be anything more than his desire to be silent. It was in fact my own (intentional) silence during and after my plane flight home that brought others into the discussion when it was the best time for me to step back. Many times the best words are the words not spoken.

- Bill

P.S. I've always felt that there's a special place for people who stay silent in public, but stir up schit behind our backs. Don't expect any of these people to come forward and apologize for the unnecessary grief they have caused. Res ipsa loquitur.

[Van Canna]

P.S. I've always felt that there's a special place for people who stay silent in public, but stir up schit behind our backs. Don't expect any of these people to come forward and apologize for the unnecessary grief they have caused. Res ipsa loquitur.

Amen, Bro..don't I know it.

It kept happening over and over on my forum, where George was receiving 'dozens' of emails from people not happy about what I was writing but lacking the 'balls' to step forth in the discussion because they were afraid I would blow them into a hole with my 'sophisticated' writing style.

Can you imagine? Those brain bereft farting hippos...

[Van Canna]

Something of interest:

Mostly, for those who ask "How does TOYAMA Sensei do this or that", I
will refer folks to the following commercially-available videotapes
containing TOYAMA Sensei's individual performances:

a. 33rd Anniversary Demonstration tape
b. Alan Dollar's Golden Gate 98 tape
c. 1st Worldwide Karate/Kobudo Festival 1990
d. French production of "Masters of Okinawan Karate", 1997 (I don't have
this tape and I'm not sure if it's available in NTSC)
e. NHK (Japanese Government video production) "The Heart of Japan, the
Heart of Okinawa" Summit Venue Overview
f. NHK-affiliated tape "The Ultimate Martial Arts", Volume 1 (available
through Shureido)

NHK and NHK-Affiliated tapes are official Japanese Government records or
documentary tapes.

[NEB]

Some interesting points, and very germane to the overall discussion.

After looking through GEM's book (The one with the yellow cover), the many pics in there of Master Kanei seem to show a clear rolling down and forward of the shoulders. His muscles seem to be totally engaged, including the muscles of the upper back. His lower back is fairly strait, but there is a slight roundedness of the upper portion of the back, caused by the position of the elbows, etc.

Looking at Toyama, yes its clear that he is leaning back somewhat, but mostly from the lower back. His upper back and shoulders are seemingly rolled forward and down, so as to get that major flex he holds during the kata (Sanseiryu/Sandairyu), no? No one can deny his development, at least in terms of musculature.

Very interesting.

[Bill Glasheen]

After looking through GEM's book (The one with the yellow cover), the many pics in there of Master Kanei seem to show a clear rolling down and forward of the shoulders. His muscles seem to be totally engaged, including the muscles of the upper back. His lower back is fairly strait, but there is a slight roundedness of the upper portion of the back, caused by the position of the elbows, etc.

There's an aspect of this posture that someone connected to bodybuilding understands. While I never did bodybuilding, I married one (female) and went to many shows.

There's a trapezius display that bodybuilders do which creates a kind of "peacock" look. It's sometimes referred to as the "strong" posture.



I find myself going in and out of it when I've been doing lots of power cleans. It's especially tempting to "roll the traps" in closed gate. Doing lots of Sanchin training with the jars will give you that ability to roll the traps.

The thing is... it feels more show than go to me. But that's me.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

And if you're wondering why I would go watch a women's bodybuilding competition, well...



'Nuff said.

- Bill

[maxwell ainley]

Back to my theme that Kanbun was teaching a performance style ,obviously he was .our principle windows to this are Kanei sensei Tomoyose sensei and Toyama sensei ,also everything in general comes via these important Sensei ,on Kanbun .

My point to all is; these are three special windows .

Anyway thats how I see things ,my principle intention is to attempt to convey the idea they all offer something valuable ,and I absolutly refuse to take a stance favoring any of the above ,they are all special

A specialty of mine and a ongoing interest as been body language ,but here I want to look at the child to young adult role in this ,at school we had exellent mimics of say a certain character ,a odd moving teacher .