Sanchin is so hard to transmit...

[Dana Sheets]

Sanchin is so hard to transmit...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYxcIFqGWvw

Can we talk about what not to do?

[MikeK]

OMG. What are the four senseis supposed to be doing?

I checked out some of their other videos and they just look like a somewhat average karate school with average instructors.

Here's a video for Pinan Shodan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2crQAUdfns

Whoops, he's actually doing Pinan Nidan.

Here's a fifth degree doing an elbow kata.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDITtWHnbJM

[nosib]

...And one wonders why many people think karate is
a joke!
What not to do?
technique without concentration and considerable
physical effort. I think a better activity for them would
be mall walking or riding a bicycle.
The 5th dan elbow guy reminds me of someone who
learned from a book. Not their faults,just bad teachers.

Sanchin hard to transmit? Individuals who have
trouble with understanding concepts and methods is
what makes it difficult. Most all,with competent instruction
grasp sanchin in short order. The girl in the video doesn't train seriously and has poor instruction.

[Joe Bellone]

Hi Dana,

I have something a little more constructive.

How about we talk about what to do?

It's very easy to pick on things and pull things apart. I actually would like to hear some comments on what could be taken as positive from the video instead of ripping on folks.

Ripping on folks only gives the impression of "better than you" and we all know as serious Karateka there are better things to do with our time and Karate study than poke at others.

I hear that Karate guys ****** all the time from my MMA associates. Clearly, we as Karate students should hold ourselves to a higher standard and "take what is useful" from everyone.

So - tell me you guys what's good about what you just saw?

good training,
Joe

[MikeK]

The only good thing I saw was she didn't seem to get hurt.

[MikeK]

Here's another student getting their sanchin tested. It's a lot easier to see what they're doing. I think they're calling sanchin the "True Battle".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqbEbPJU ... re=related


Videos of the school's advanced ranks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkC8xhbc ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsIUnRwI ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZsiBrF6-vw&NR=1

[Dana Sheets]

I agree that any jacka$$ can kick down a door and it takes a carpenter to build one. What I see in this video is a cautionary tale to all that the training partner or teacher doing the testing must keep in mind at all times how the checking is enhancing the student's awareness of their own body, their breathing, and their progress and to avoid any practices that might lead to detrimental development or confusion about the foundational principles of Sanchin training.

Half of sanchin training is held by the person doing the form. The other half of sanchin training is held by the person doing the "checking" of the form..if and only if that checker acts as a judicious biofeedback mechanism.

Specifically the "checker" should:

• push/pull/hit the student to an appropriate level. I think we can all agree that anyone can knock anyone else over in sanchin. The point of checking a sanchin is to help the practitioner figure out how to improve what they're doing. I don't care if that checking is occurring during a regular class, a demonstration, or a testing situation. Training is training.
• breathe with the student so that you know when they are protected and when they are vulnerable in order to time checks accordingly and keep the student safe. Also the checker should be able to give feedback about the breathing--if the practitioner is doing it in a manner that is hampering or enhancing progress. One of the best ways to do that is to breathe with them. Or as Mr. Thompson said, "Then there are two of you doing the kata together."
• keep the student's well being as a priority and do not put the student at risk of injury. (As a friend of mine recently commented, if you're regularly experiencing significant injury during training, then your best form of self defense might be to stop training.)
• have an awareness of the student's balance and connection to the ground and "consolidation" of sanchin. If they fall apart then give them time to reset; otherwise, there is a tendency to use strange and most likely antagonistic muscle contractions to try to "hold it together" for the rest of the form.

I'm sure there are additional pieces that could be added that I've omitted.

What is good about the video is that it is available for us to discuss. That's why I put on Bill's forum instead of mine 'cause I'm not feeling particularly objective about this one.

[MikeK]

Question, do the instructors look like they even remotely know what they're doing or what they're testing for?

[Dana Sheets]

Yes, the instructors have knowledge of what they're doing looking for. Where I think things become very difficult (impossible) for the student is when the multiple instructors are sending multiple force vectors into the student with lots of energy.

The skill to manage multiple loads in different directions simultaneously is something you expect from a master.

Dealing with sharp, quick shoves down on one arm, forward on one leg, forward and up into the back, and forward and down into the stomach at the same time ain't easy for anyone to deal with when the pushes are very light, just a pound to two. Increase the amount of force being used and I'd put it at nigh on impossible for 99% of even very experienced practitioners to manage that many.

[Dana Sheets]

So here is a video for comparison.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TrBhCMAriQ#t=2m21s

Notice how the instructor is paying close attention to the student at each step in the checks and how the student is given opportunities for resetting and therefore improving over the course of the checking.

[MikeK]

Where I think things become very difficult (impossible) for the student is when the multiple instructors are sending multiple force vectors into the student with lots of energy.

And that's part of what I mean when I asked if they looked like they knew what they were doing. By testing in that manner it looked to me like they were aping the movements of a Sanchin test all at the same time but not understanding how to use it to see where the student needed work.

At least in your second video during the test I could see that the student had his weight on his heels (2:45) and more importantly the student could notice it.

BTW, What branch of Uechi-Ryu was that? Had a different feel to it then some of the others that I've seen.

[Dana Sheets]

I'll try capture video of my performing a sanchin check on a student next Tuesday night (if I can find a willing volunteer) and post it up for comment and critique.

----

I don't know what branch that is and it kind of doesn't matter. Sanchin is trained and checked similarly in multiple styles, Goju-ryu, Ishhin-Ryu, etc. So the style doesn't matter because the fundamental principles are the same (grounding and generating forces through your legs using the floor, not extending beyond your balance limits when striking, various ways to use the breath and contraction/relaxation to develop the connective tissues and muscles, developing self-awareness, etc.)

[Dana Sheets]

The girl in the video doesn't train seriously...

I disagree. I think the woman in the video is quite serious about her training. I think nearly every student that spends enough time training to attempt a test for dan rank is serious about their training. Her effort should not be diminished.

[Bill Glasheen]

Sanchin is so hard to transmit...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYxcIFqGWvw

Can we talk about what not to do?

Dana

Nice post. Sorry, but I've been traveling and I don't like to advertise when I do. I've been in the lovely city of Louisville for a few days. Neat place. Too bad I couldn't stay until the Derby.

Let's start with the fact that this is some offshoot of Miyagi Chojun's kata. I've done the classic Goju Sanchin so I'm cool with it. I have a nidan in Goju in fact. But the choreography on this is a bit odd. There is no turn, which is REALLY important to study and practice in Sanchin. Then there are two rather than one waukes at the end, which isn't really Miyagi's Sanchin. This is some dojo's off-brand version. I'm cool with the extra wauke. But the lack of turning IMO means they're missing part of the good stuff - for many reasons.

Let's look at the positive. George does something like this kind of "checking" and I'm all for it. I believe he calls it "in your face" Sanchin training. Basically instead of beating the schit out of someone in a static stance (while they hunker down rather than practice executing), they have actually several people gently harassing her THROUGH the kata in a somewhat random fashion. There's nothing wrong with this. Work out with George some time and he'll show you how this can be done with a Uechi Sanchin.

Now it's difficult actually to see this girl's Sanchin, so I can only say so much. But she really has some opportunities for improvement, and instruction with some people who actually use this stance rather than use the kata (with checking) for demos.

Anyhow... I'm just saying that there's some merit to the type and even level of checking done here - even if the student isn't exactly shining in her execution of the form. This type of checking needs to be judged on its own merit, and the principles behind it are quite sound. I'll take this kind of checking ANY day over the nonsense we see online which give a false impression of what Uechi training. I'll also go so far to say that this kind of abuse while in a static posture ingrains the wrong instincts in the practitioner. And I think Van is on board with me on this. Why teach someone to "take it" when you can teach someone to "attack through it?" THAT is proper execution of mushin.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Here is the same woman without the boys around her - doing a more advanced form.

Ms Alvarez Kata Wansu

As I might have expected from her Sanchin...

1) Needs power. No caffeine in the coffee.

2) Front kicks are a bit low.

She's otherwise OK. Give her to me for a year and I could turn the decaf into espresso. I see lots of cases of women karate practitioners like this. IMO the male teachers really aren't taking her seriously. Or... at least not in the way they should. Yes she CAN do it.

- Bill