Try not to be offended, but.... I don't like Seisan bunkai.
For example, anything involving a swordsperson losing in any way is just fantasy. Why do we practice sword defenses? Not because it was elemental to unarmed okinawans defeating Japanese swordsmen--it's a Chinese kata. The leaning elbow is better suited for a grab situation, that may actually arise. It can be used as a safe throw if the forearm instead of the elbow is used. Following an outside wauke the elbow can strike up into TW-11 of the puncher's arm additionally hyperextending the joint with the hiraken into TW-17 (striking along the meridian!). I was doing the traditional defense in public today, painfully aware it couldn't be defended.
The hammerhand can be used against a right-left as an inside wauke and the rising fist blocking punch #2 (from inside; or from on top as it's drawn back). The 2nd wauke can be used to strike the neck or knock the head backwards to prep for the boshiken, which would catch them leaning back and really launch them. Or the circle/hammer can outside block and wrench an elbow (as above) with the wauke again setting up the boshiken.
The sweeping turn after the first knee can clear a right front kick for the groin strike. It can hit into the head or neck of a leaning foe preceeding a face strike.
The groin strikes can be used facing someone with a pulling wrench. Or, hair grab and drag down or strike into the neck of the foe when they react leaning forward.
The step into kiba dachi before the leap has uses. The leap... many uses in part, few demonstrated in its entirety. Where's the valuable knee kick-jam Seisan has taught us, among other things? Watch for it in Lee's "The Chinese Connection" against a kick combo. Use the motions in myriad applications separately.
Problems with Uniform Bunkai:
1) many applications omitted
2) some silly applications taught--students and observers lose faith in what we do
3) people (unlike those wise contributors to the seisan thread) think they learn the single bunkai technique, they know what the kata means or "is"
4) students don't learn to analyze, adapt things to their needs, etc.
5) cookie-cutter students
Suggestions: let... or REQUIRE students come up with alterations on their bunkais. They should learn the "standard," but they should be able to explore on their own. And they should understand that what works for one person WILL NOT work for all persons. So we should not all do bunkai the same. This would be possible every time a student were to test with someone s/he knew, otherwise preparation/communication problems would make it impractical.
We should remove allow people not to do the above silly stuff and replace it with things we are likely to need to do in our lives.
Perhaps we could have a standard bunkai that uses multiple applications per technique. Or require a simple one and require additional insights from students. But at least we should be intellectually honest about what we're doing and explain why leaping away from a sword is emphasized over practical and possible applications. Because I don't know and I've lost interest in making up an answer when my brighter students ask. Nowadays I tell them to put up with it and here's some cool stuff on the side. We show a rigid adherence to this drill that would be UTTERLY FOREIGN to the kata's creators, I'm sure, especially considering how differet the bunkai used to be... and how it's a relatively modern thing... Let's improve the art!
Improving the Art
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Tim Ahearn
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Improving the Art
Tim-san...I disliked the bunkai when I first started to learn it....that changed and I really like it now. I'm sure there will be others who comment on this...I only have one. Replace sword with metal baseball bat....kinda modernizes the reason for the moves a little bit.
Improving the Art
Mr. Ahearn,
Great post! I must admitt I have often wondered the same thing over the years. The "sword defenses" you speak of would not work against me(zero sword training) never mind a ruthless, trained, combat experienced samurai.(which did not exist when the bunkai was created) To qoute Sinefeld "whats up with this?"
The Dillman theory would suggest American GIs were purposely duped, and techniques were "dulled" for introduction into school systems. Makes sense to me. If the kata are original to China and have not been altered(which I am not so sure about)- at least we are practicing good movement patterns that put body power into every technique. However, if we practice these techniques (dare I say it?) WRONG, where are we going in our training?
On the other hand, when students see the inherent weakness in the bunkai that is a good sign, and in a sense it encourages them to think. Not everyone thinks, that is sad - but giving non-thinkers a "better bunkai" will not make them better "artists".
When I have questioned the bunkai in the past, my teacher just smiles and says "So?, what do you think YOU could/would use that movement for?, These are the simplest interpretations, you are a blackbelt!"
As far as the title and main thrust of your post, I agree. I think THINKERS like you have already made the art better and will continue to.
Great post! I must admitt I have often wondered the same thing over the years. The "sword defenses" you speak of would not work against me(zero sword training) never mind a ruthless, trained, combat experienced samurai.(which did not exist when the bunkai was created) To qoute Sinefeld "whats up with this?"
The Dillman theory would suggest American GIs were purposely duped, and techniques were "dulled" for introduction into school systems. Makes sense to me. If the kata are original to China and have not been altered(which I am not so sure about)- at least we are practicing good movement patterns that put body power into every technique. However, if we practice these techniques (dare I say it?) WRONG, where are we going in our training?
On the other hand, when students see the inherent weakness in the bunkai that is a good sign, and in a sense it encourages them to think. Not everyone thinks, that is sad - but giving non-thinkers a "better bunkai" will not make them better "artists".
When I have questioned the bunkai in the past, my teacher just smiles and says "So?, what do you think YOU could/would use that movement for?, These are the simplest interpretations, you are a blackbelt!"
As far as the title and main thrust of your post, I agree. I think THINKERS like you have already made the art better and will continue to.
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Evan Pantazi
- Posts: 1897
- Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
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Improving the Art
Tim San,
Keep lookin and cookin these Kata can be amazing with what's inside.
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Evan Pantazi
users.erols.com/kyusho
Keep lookin and cookin these Kata can be amazing with what's inside.
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Evan Pantazi
users.erols.com/kyusho
Improving the Art
Tim,
I agree with your first sentiment about the application for the seisan jump... UNREAL.
Mary S, with all due respect, I disagree. You modernized the weapon. Nevertheless, give me the bat and I will take out 90% of folks who want to try that application. I am not being brash. Just real.
Please, Tim, look more into that move and come up with other applications.
david
I agree with your first sentiment about the application for the seisan jump... UNREAL.
Mary S, with all due respect, I disagree. You modernized the weapon. Nevertheless, give me the bat and I will take out 90% of folks who want to try that application. I am not being brash. Just real.
Please, Tim, look more into that move and come up with other applications.
david
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Allen M.
Improving the Art
Tim,
Granted you are not going to find Duncan McCleod and his highlander buds on the streetcorners, and even fighting sonmeone flailing a stick around is not easy, never mind fighting against someone with a sword. But with adequate training, anyone raises their right arm high in a threatening situation, whether he is holding a stick, a stone, a knife, or any kind of implement that is an extension of his hand, and you are close enough, should cause you to be drawn into that person's face or chest with your elbow -- like a magnet -- to smash away.
Kata are just concepts, and applications of a given concept can be many.
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Allen, now at his new website http://www.ury2k.com/pulse/index.htm
Granted you are not going to find Duncan McCleod and his highlander buds on the streetcorners, and even fighting sonmeone flailing a stick around is not easy, never mind fighting against someone with a sword. But with adequate training, anyone raises their right arm high in a threatening situation, whether he is holding a stick, a stone, a knife, or any kind of implement that is an extension of his hand, and you are close enough, should cause you to be drawn into that person's face or chest with your elbow -- like a magnet -- to smash away.
Kata are just concepts, and applications of a given concept can be many.
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Allen, now at his new website http://www.ury2k.com/pulse/index.htm
Improving the Art
David-san, absolutely no disrespect taken. I merely modernized the weapon to show that a weapon by any other name...is still a weapon. I would think that my personal inclination when a weapon comes swinging towards my legs would be a defencive one...jumping the @*&^$ out of the way...quickly followed by an offencive movement, say perhaps jumping back towards the attacker and striking in attempt to stop a second attack.
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Fedele Cacia
- Posts: 180
- Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2000 6:01 am
- Location: Natick, MA. U.S.A.
Improving the Art
I here, IT, all the time, ”I don’t like Seisan Bunkai”.
For some reason I love Seisan Bunkai, but that’s just my opinion.
We have to remember, sometimes on the surface things are not always
as they seem. As my first Sensei, J.T.H., would always say, with a firm voice,
“MAKE it work”
Fedele
For some reason I love Seisan Bunkai, but that’s just my opinion.
We have to remember, sometimes on the surface things are not always
as they seem. As my first Sensei, J.T.H., would always say, with a firm voice,
“MAKE it work”
Fedele
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Gary Santaniello
- Posts: 288
- Joined: Thu May 06, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Randolph Ma USA
Improving the Art
Tim,
We do not always see what is deep within.
Surely some of the bunkie applications may not seem realistic to you. One can always expand upon any pre-arranged drill. Don't be limited by what appears to be useless to you at this time.
Regarding the "sword" attack, as Mary suggest it could well be a baseball bat or a 2x4. Attacking the arm slamming the tricept (T-11 ?) and following it up with a variety of options is not useless in it's content. Get the basic drills down then look deeper.
Remember, no one says that in your own dojo you can't experiment a little.
Best wishes,
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Gary S.
We do not always see what is deep within.
Surely some of the bunkie applications may not seem realistic to you. One can always expand upon any pre-arranged drill. Don't be limited by what appears to be useless to you at this time.
Regarding the "sword" attack, as Mary suggest it could well be a baseball bat or a 2x4. Attacking the arm slamming the tricept (T-11 ?) and following it up with a variety of options is not useless in it's content. Get the basic drills down then look deeper.
Remember, no one says that in your own dojo you can't experiment a little.
Best wishes,
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Gary S.
Improving the Art
<Blockquote> Nevertheless, give me the bat and I will take out 90% of folks who want to try that application.</blockquote>
Well, right now there must be dozens of the “real deal” Uechi/Shohei/ etc. “ masters” with impeccable “lineage”, clutching their black belt, looking at themselves in the mirror saying to themselves “ Oh mirror, mirror on the wall, tell me, who is the toughest of them all”??
I will be sure to reserve ringside seats for the “demonstration” by David-sensei! Just looking at him “fondling” that bat with a gleam in his eyes will set your insides to mush!
When coming up against a baseball bat swung by a “demonized” opponent, if you really must engage rather than run for your life, you must charge the swing just as it is about to gain momentum, whether the swing is high or low! To “evade”, such as in the jump back, you will find yourself in the path of the fastest and meanest arc of the swing, the front end “load”!
Your dreams of moving back in, like “lightning”, to “intercept” the bottom of the return “down swing”, will be dashed first……. by the broken leg you will have received in the first “side swing” and next….by the “slippage” on your own precious bodily fluids!
But…..but…but…confidence in the technique, is everything right??
And don’t forget about that “little man” perched on your shoulder, tapping you in the back of the head, whispering sweetly “ make sure your black belt is long enough so it will strap around your casket fully to lower your ass into the ground”
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Van Canna
Well, right now there must be dozens of the “real deal” Uechi/Shohei/ etc. “ masters” with impeccable “lineage”, clutching their black belt, looking at themselves in the mirror saying to themselves “ Oh mirror, mirror on the wall, tell me, who is the toughest of them all”??
I will be sure to reserve ringside seats for the “demonstration” by David-sensei! Just looking at him “fondling” that bat with a gleam in his eyes will set your insides to mush!
When coming up against a baseball bat swung by a “demonized” opponent, if you really must engage rather than run for your life, you must charge the swing just as it is about to gain momentum, whether the swing is high or low! To “evade”, such as in the jump back, you will find yourself in the path of the fastest and meanest arc of the swing, the front end “load”!
Your dreams of moving back in, like “lightning”, to “intercept” the bottom of the return “down swing”, will be dashed first……. by the broken leg you will have received in the first “side swing” and next….by the “slippage” on your own precious bodily fluids!
But…..but…but…confidence in the technique, is everything right??
And don’t forget about that “little man” perched on your shoulder, tapping you in the back of the head, whispering sweetly “ make sure your black belt is long enough so it will strap around your casket fully to lower your ass into the ground”
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Van Canna
Improving the Art
Gentle people,
You could easily test this theory with a wiffle ball bat, or a red-man suit and a real(wooden) bat, or with kendo armor and.......
You could easily test this theory with a wiffle ball bat, or a red-man suit and a real(wooden) bat, or with kendo armor and.......
Improving the Art
Of course, you could just block the bat (sword) with your arm.
If your not far enough away to run for it, I'd say the closer you are to the fulcrum, whether inside or outside, the better off you are.
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sean
If your not far enough away to run for it, I'd say the closer you are to the fulcrum, whether inside or outside, the better off you are.
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sean
Improving the Art
I guess a lot of this thread probably belongs on the Seisan kata analysis threads. But in regards to some folks' objections to required drills...
In my ideal world it would be practical, and required, that each Uechi Ryu dojo create it's own kumite and bunkai from scratch. This would, I suppose, complicate large tests, but either stuff works or it doesn't. Think of the exponential growth and creativity this would create within the system!
I don't expect any such thing to happen, of course, and the weaknesses of the required pre-arranged drills are a useful irritant. We keep digging deeper to "make it work".
In the meantime, the policy in the kyu ranks in our dojo is that at each test students demonstrate new drills of their own creation in addition to the usual curriculum requirements. The drills can be kata applications, self-defense, pre-arranged kumite, or whatever strikes the students as their "worst nightmare" situation.
As students progress through the ranks, they develop a set of their favorite drills honed and added to through each test preparation.
As we work with students in this process, we address concerns the required drills bring up for us. For example, most new drills created by students abandon the "block, block, counter" philosophy demonstrated in the junior pre-arranged kumite drills in favor of of more direct and aggressive responses.
This has been a fun and rewarding solution for us.
In my ideal world it would be practical, and required, that each Uechi Ryu dojo create it's own kumite and bunkai from scratch. This would, I suppose, complicate large tests, but either stuff works or it doesn't. Think of the exponential growth and creativity this would create within the system!
I don't expect any such thing to happen, of course, and the weaknesses of the required pre-arranged drills are a useful irritant. We keep digging deeper to "make it work".
In the meantime, the policy in the kyu ranks in our dojo is that at each test students demonstrate new drills of their own creation in addition to the usual curriculum requirements. The drills can be kata applications, self-defense, pre-arranged kumite, or whatever strikes the students as their "worst nightmare" situation.
As students progress through the ranks, they develop a set of their favorite drills honed and added to through each test preparation.
As we work with students in this process, we address concerns the required drills bring up for us. For example, most new drills created by students abandon the "block, block, counter" philosophy demonstrated in the junior pre-arranged kumite drills in favor of of more direct and aggressive responses.
This has been a fun and rewarding solution for us.
Improving the Art
Billy B,
I think you hit it right on (no pun intended). For those who think they have this move down -- meaning years of training -- please have someone go at you in real time and see if you can evade and counter as in that sequence and using that attack. Then also realize afterwards that attack sequence was set up to be slower by the unnatural low horizontal strike, looping around to an overhead. More likely the attack would be a horizontal followed by a diagonal up, or a diagonal down followed by horizontal. These are more natural and faster attack sequences.
Also JUMPING back in you give up grounding and the ability for last split second directional changes in response to directional changes of the weapon if need be. One is irrevocably committed. It also violates the rule that more power is generated by a grounded attack. As a 130 pounder, I'll bounce off most folks in trying to hit them from a jump whereas if I keep at least one or the other foot grounded I can maximize the transfer of power in the strike.
It is as Van sensei noted, if you must fight that weapon, ATTACK it before a full swing. If you evade, don't attempt an attack again until you have a solid platform to launch from and that is with BOTH feet on the ground.
I don't disagree with those that say work on this as a concept. But there are BETTER concepts than this particular one. And if we believe what we train is what we do in a real encounter then many of us we find ourselves on the power end of the weapon. May G_d be merciful... because your attacker will not be.
david
I think you hit it right on (no pun intended). For those who think they have this move down -- meaning years of training -- please have someone go at you in real time and see if you can evade and counter as in that sequence and using that attack. Then also realize afterwards that attack sequence was set up to be slower by the unnatural low horizontal strike, looping around to an overhead. More likely the attack would be a horizontal followed by a diagonal up, or a diagonal down followed by horizontal. These are more natural and faster attack sequences.
Also JUMPING back in you give up grounding and the ability for last split second directional changes in response to directional changes of the weapon if need be. One is irrevocably committed. It also violates the rule that more power is generated by a grounded attack. As a 130 pounder, I'll bounce off most folks in trying to hit them from a jump whereas if I keep at least one or the other foot grounded I can maximize the transfer of power in the strike.
It is as Van sensei noted, if you must fight that weapon, ATTACK it before a full swing. If you evade, don't attempt an attack again until you have a solid platform to launch from and that is with BOTH feet on the ground.
I don't disagree with those that say work on this as a concept. But there are BETTER concepts than this particular one. And if we believe what we train is what we do in a real encounter then many of us we find ourselves on the power end of the weapon. May G_d be merciful... because your attacker will not be.
david
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Raffi Derderian
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- Contact:
Improving the Art
Van Sensei,
I could not have said it better myself. I doubt there are many people in the Uechi world who could use that baseball bat defense and make it work.
Tim, I understand your frustration with the bunkai. I too don't like many of the applications. So come up with your own. However, you need to know the "textbook" bunkai for the student to learn. Once they have are more experienced with karate, then they can come up with their own.
I personally would love to see some of your interpretations. Rich C has told me your group won't be around for my Richmond seminar on the 10th. I'm sorry I won't see you guys.
Raffi
I could not have said it better myself. I doubt there are many people in the Uechi world who could use that baseball bat defense and make it work.
Tim, I understand your frustration with the bunkai. I too don't like many of the applications. So come up with your own. However, you need to know the "textbook" bunkai for the student to learn. Once they have are more experienced with karate, then they can come up with their own.
I personally would love to see some of your interpretations. Rich C has told me your group won't be around for my Richmond seminar on the 10th. I'm sorry I won't see you guys.
Raffi
