A pretty basic question

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Mar 17, 2000 9:18 pm

Some time back on another forum (boo, hiss), a gentleman who will remain unnamed annoyed the heck out of the general community by bragging about his True (patent pending), modern (new, improved, etc. ad nauseum) method of training. You know...kata ***** and we should all go train with Biff down the street. He has his fighters put gloves on and hit the heavy bag and wrestle with alligators and... And Biff's fighters compete in the UFC and WWF and... Same old same old...

But people who are annoying often bring up good points. He was "dissing" kata in the Goju system (I believe) and was talking about how useless the circle block was. Then he talked about the real blocks that he learned from his guru that were basically boxer's parries. Well there were the indignant among us who tried to teach him the REAL True (patent pending) way... But...he really had a point. At least I thought so.

You see, I've never done a circle block one-handed. I've always first parried with the other, except in the case where you are setting the opponent up to match kick against arm thrust. Initially I always thought of it like catching a baseball, where your coach would have your head if he caught you catching a fly ball with only one hand. But I believe it's more than that.

I believe (danger, opinion!!) that the wauke we see in sanchin, and subsequently in other kata, has a vital component in the arm that is not doing the circle. And I believe this is also true of the typical chudan uke seen in Okinawan karate. When you think about the physics of the situation, the circling hand is never going to beat the opponent's fist that is traveling in a straight line towards and potentially through you. The first, parrying hand will get there in quick order and - for all practical purposes - get the job done without the other circling hand.

And we usually don't see people throwing circle blocks when they spar either. Why is that? Is it because maybe (warning, speculation!!!) the real block is the parry, and the circling hand is usually doing something else that people never want/use/need in typical point sparring? Like...attacking the arm? I know that is not a new concept, but have we considered that the circling hand was never really meant to block? Or could the job of the circling hand be grabbing the opponent so we can unceremoniously dump them or pin them while we pummel?

Just wondering...

- Bill

maurice richard libby · Fri Mar 17, 2000 9:40 pm

Bill,

actually, that's what I've always thought. When I ws training at david Mott's dojo, I always had a tendency to block with the parrying hand and either do an arm bar with the circling hand, or do a kind of bil jee(sp?) to tje eyes or the neck with the fingers of the circle hand. people used to get really ticked of with me. But it was so easy

.

maurice

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maurice richard libby
toronto/moose jaw
ICQ9474685
Ronin at large

david · Post by **david** » Fri Mar 17, 2000 9:45 pm

Bill,

>>When you think about the physics of the situation, the circling hand is never going to beat the opponent's fist that is traveling in a straight line towards and potentially through you. The first, parrying hand will get there in quick order and - for all practical purposes - get the job done without the other circling hand.<<

Experiential agreement here. Parry is faster. While I favor parry, there are times where a parry like (deflecting) movement to the outside, leading/culiminating into a semi wauke is useful. This is especially true with the front hand, stepping through with the rear leg simultaneously. The set up is for a followup punch with the other hand, and a sweep or throw.

On the other note, I agreed a lot with what the person had to say but disagreed with WAY he said it.

david

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Mar 17, 2000 9:48 pm

Yes, david. And you were very kind to him - more so than he deserved.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Mar 17, 2000 9:51 pm

But...this brings up the issue that perhaps this gentleman disagreed with his formal martial arts training because he never understood them in the first place. Nobody ever showed him how to throw the block from his kata, and what each of the arms are for. And perhaps most people don't understand it, but are too polite or believe too much to ask the right questions. And if they did ask them, maybe their instructors can't give them the right answer. Are most people mistaken on how to use these blocks? I wonder.

- Bill

Tim Ahearn · Post by **Tim Ahearn** » Fri Mar 17, 2000 10:18 pm

I think that cutting a tiny circle with your wauke can be just as fast as the parry. The circle is just reduced to a very small size and with an emphasis that depends on need and not on geometric circle-ness. It might never be spotted as a circle. But it was learned by doing... then learning to minimize the circle block on punch after punch.

I've also come to believe we should never use the word "block." Always: enter... attack... when punched, use the attack to create opportunities and turn a defensive situation into an offensive one. Not, block, step back, then attack.... the block *is* attack, that disrupts stance or includes damaging the arm or even head while the defense is taking place. The defense is not "the thing;" the thing is the attacking the defense allows. It is the attacking that deserves the attention.

We often encourage students to do something wholly defensive, stepping back and concentrating on the block, when they should just be reflexively pounding the bad guy and not playing along by acting the role of the defender. I think the idea of the circle "block" drains most of the power from the technique and trains people to retreat and remain in the defensive mindset. Thoughts?

BILLY B · Post by **BILLY B** » Fri Mar 17, 2000 10:41 pm

Bill G,

.."But people who are annoying often bring up good points."

I got a "fortune" in a Chinese type cookie recently. It said; "If you generate disagreement you may be saying something right".

After reading this I decided to write what was on my mind boldly(trying to avoid being "personal" or offensive) - and then appoligize later if someone did take offense.

Good observatons about our "blocks". Circular movement is a powerful concept and has its advantages over the straight line. However, it is not quicker. How about deflecting a punch with the non-circling hand, advancing your body position forward and pivoting while simultaneously waukeing around the opponents arm to position yourself behind them where you have a shoulder-lock on them. This is a "block" in that it is defensive, at the same time it is proactive. You can also do this application with someone grabing your lapel - which takes the speed of a punch out of the equation.

Joseph Bellone · Post by **Joseph Bellone** » Sat Mar 18, 2000 1:13 am

"Or could the job of the circling hand be grabbing the opponent so we can unceremoniously dump them or pin them while we pummel?"

In my opinion, this is one of the major applications of the movement. I'm in total agreement that no person will be able to pull off a wauke block faster than a good straight jab. The success of the wauke is staying close after the parry with the secondary hand, sticking to the opponent (after all this is a in close fighting system and pummeling and grabbing are trademarks of the style.) and then explore your options. This could mean use your opponents momentum against himself along with the whipping of your wauke (along with the secondary hand) to perform a 'pickup' and dump him. Maybe you use the whipping motion of the wauke to attack the face in a ripping action like Van Canna Sensei has mentioned.

My basic point is that the Wauke motion is like a feeler that should be helping you stick to your opponent and provide you some good opportunities of attack for you. Think about it, do you ever do a wauke block in the Kata's moving backwards like we do in preset Bunkai or Kumite? We always move forward. Is there a reason for this? I think so. Along with the general mindset it's trying to cultivate. (Van, we're going to have a good time talking next Saturday at the Vale Tudo...)

Personally, I'm with Bill and Van, get in close using the Wauke to attack. Now it's just personal preference (and situational) of whether you throw, strike, grab, exercise a Chin Na movement, or do some Kyusho. Done in this fashion it opens up a lot of opportunites. But, you have to be aggressive and you have to create "NO SPACE." Not too comfortable to most people.

Just my opinion. Good training. Excellent topic Bill.

Joe

Tim Ahearn · Post by **Tim Ahearn** » Sat Mar 18, 2000 2:26 am

I agree that if someone is standing in punching range, and throws a jab, no one will be able to circle block it. But I doubt they'd be able to parry either.

From the moment the hand moves, you have to form an image on your retina, ship it back to the laternal geniculate nucleus and process it, send down the optic radiation to the occipital cortex, analyze it further, form an opinion about it, inform the motor cortex, generate a coordinated response and send that down the spine to the body, and get the parts in the right place. After he's already starting moving.

So I believe I can parry, or short-wauke, a punch provided 1) I see it 2) it's being started out of range to hit me by someone moving into that range 3) my hands were only inches from the desired spot anyway, properly positioned in front of me, mostly so anything that would hit me would have to brush by the arm giving me more info on the movement through touch. At this range I can see premotion, telegraphing, that gives me the time required for a "block." Or, if I'm fighting well, a charge into them that neutralizes the punch before it starts and lands something nasty at the same time. If they're already punching range it takes too long to respond; whoever moves first should hit. Then it's all about covering your targets, shifting, and pummeling, grabbing etc. No "blocking" can be done at that range. If you don't believe me, I bet a boxer could convince you.

Waukes also work well for many joint locking applications, some off grabs llike on the lapel--but I always have my students land something ferocious while they're getting fancy instead of relying on a lock that may not work and may only cost them their singular opportunity to land a brilliant first strike. Like elbow the head as they start the lock with hand #2.

So why don't we teach kumite around this stuff?? This goes back to my earlier gripes on Seisan bunkai and kyu kumite. Why don't we have people fight in these they way we'd want them to for real?!?

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Sat Mar 18, 2000 3:16 am

One big ugly problem of the circle without the parry is that it is all to easy to redirect an oncoming punch right into your own face. The parry gets the punch out of harms way while the circle further redirects it and can be used as a check. The both used together are a pair that a full house can't beat.

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Allen, New website http://www.ury2k.com/pulse/index.htm mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/

david · Post by **david** » Sat Mar 18, 2000 4:44 am

Tim,

>>I agree that if someone is standing in punching range, and throws a jab, no one will be able to circle block it. But I doubt they'd be able to parry either.<<

This is the middle range where standing still both can reach and touch each other with their extended arms. There is no business being here unless one of the other has closed the distance in an attack. I think nobody should stay in this range except for the briefest of instances before retreating out of range or closing to grappling (as Joe described). The exception is probably in a boxing competition, where the players are testing each other's fortitude in a trade or flurry of punches.

>>So I believe I can parry, or short-wauke, a punch provided 1) I see it 2) it's being started out of range to hit me by someone moving into that range 3) my hands were only inches from the desired spot anyway, properly positioned in front of me, mostly so anything that would hit me would have to brush by the arm giving me more info on the movement through touch. At this range I can see premotion, telegraphing, that gives me the time required for a "block." Or, if I'm fighting well, a charge into them that neutralizes the punch before it starts and lands something nasty at the same time.<<

Agree. The parry or the short wauke? The choice depends on what the intented followup or conconcurrent counterattack is. BTW, The choice should be unconscious.

>>Then it's all about covering your targets, shifting, and pummeling, grabbing etc. No "blocking" can be done at that range. If you don't believe me, I bet a boxer could convince you.<<

I think we are in agreement. The boxer will slip/bob/weave/duck right into the counterattack and away again from the counter/counterattack. However, I think a good boxer sees or intuits the attacks and then moves for the counterattack. These aren't are just random movements for the most part. In this medium to medium/close range, the blocking/parrying motions are minimal but the hands are in the "correct" places so when the body moves, arms/hands end up parrying and blocking with the movement.

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited March 17, 2000).]

Gilbert MacIntyre · Post by **Gilbert MacIntyre** » Sat Mar 18, 2000 12:52 pm

I read an article, a week or so ago, that said doctors have stated it is impossible to hit a fast ball thrown by a major league pitcher. They broke down the time it takes the brain to process the info the eye is giving it as compared to the time it takes the ball to reach the plate at 90+ miles an hour. Someone should tell McGuire he's making a fool out of himself.

Fact is the body can be trained to do unbelieveable things. I know I can stop punches thrown at me with the circle block. All of them? From anybody? No, but I'll keep training. What I like about the circle block is it's strength. Either in a block of a punch or removing somebody's hand from my clothing.

I always think of it as that movement you see when people fence. You know where one person makes that quick circle and the other foil goes flying through the air(Zorro was really great at that one).

Seems to me that power is in the two circles. The large one at your hand and the small one at your shoulder. The perry is great while I'm still young enough and strong enough, but I think the circles will be with me for ever.

paul giella · Post by **paul giella** » Sat Mar 18, 2000 1:40 pm

Sensei Mattson tries to get across the idea that the blocks as done in the kata and prearranged kumite are not meant to be applied in the exact classic form in a practical situation... parts of the block, depending on the many paticulars of the situation at the moment, should occur as a natural reaction. If the grab and pull is appropriate it will be there, if a parry is required use it, if two hands are needed, etc. We don't speak or write words in the same order or exact form that they appear in the dictionary... we chose and modify to fit the thought we want to express. And at lightening speed, by reflex, if you will. Getting out of this intermediate rut (that all blocks need to be done as wa-uke)is very necessary for advancement, and very hard to get across to students and teachers.

Tim Ahearn · Post by **Tim Ahearn** » Sat Mar 18, 2000 2:13 pm

But why should anyone EVER teach a prearranged kumite where the blocks are artificially lazy, large, and rely on the opponent to quit attacking? Of course there's a shift from form to function as one moves from drill to application. But kumite, juyuyu or yakosoku, IS application. None (or as little as possible) of the artificiality of the drill should remain. If we're to believe that prearranged kumite is still something artifical we would have to modify (a second step from kata) into something real on the street, then there is NO, nada, zilch, nothing in the way of arranged realisitc fighting in Uechi. Strikes me as quite counterintuitive.

As for using just the circle and directing a punch to your nose, I agree. I've seen people do this. But I think it results from two artificial aspects of kumite in the dojo. First, people aren't already punching at your head. No one is going to charge and punch at the solar plexus; it leaves them one hand against two at head level and isn't very effective. The punch will start out high to begin with. Second, people wait for punches. After all, they're blocking, defending, etc. Blasting an opponent with an attacking wauke the moment he moves a millimeter can safely and effectively knock through and neutralize the punch and start raking the eyes, turning the back into view, etc etc with only one hand. In my experience.

Post by **gmattson** » Sat Mar 18, 2000 6:45 pm

Tim:

Who uses full circle blocks in bunkai and prearranged kumite? Thought we stopped that back in the 70s!

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GEM