"None (or as little as possible) of the artificiality of the drill should remain. If we're to believe that prearranged kumite is still something artifical we would have to modify (a second step from kata)into something real on the street, then there is NO, nada, zilch, nothing in the way of arranged realisitc fighting in Uechi. Strikes me as quite counterintuitive."
"All martial arts training is fake...some of it's just more fake than others" - Tony Blauer
Anytime we do an exercise in the martial arts, there is a degree of unreality to it. The simple fact of the matter is that nothing we do will replicate a real streetfight perfectly...unless we just go and fight (not a healthy alternative, nor one I'm advocating).
If you have a pre-arranged drill, then by it's very nature, it is unrealistic. Real fights are not prearranged!
However, the prearranged drill can carry over certain principles and concepts that are usuable in a real fight. We must expect that in the street, the fight will not look like it does in practice...it will be much uglier, and much less refined.
Just some thoughts.
Jake
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Train Harder! More Chi!
A pretty basic question
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Jake Steinmann
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A pretty basic question
I remind you, Jake, I'm expecting you to report to us about your experience at Tony's PDR seminar.... 
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Tim Ahearn
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A pretty basic question
Well, yes, prearranged kumite will be unrealistic. In no fight I plan to be in will I square off with a bad guy six feet away... there'll be objects to throw, variable terrain/lighting etc, elements of surprise, no judge to halt things if I lightly tap his abdomen with a kick or punch he won't notice....
It still doesn't make me understand why the drills are not as realistic as we can make them. Throughout kyu and dan kumite there's not a single knee strike, and there's only one elbow strike and takedown (two if you do dan Glasheen style). Elaborate this-way-then-that-way sequences exist that could never occur on the street. Why? I think it has more to do with learning karate than learning how to fight. I have no problem with the karate-DO in that respect; in fact I very much enjoy it. But I think kata take care of it.
It still doesn't make me understand why the drills are not as realistic as we can make them. Throughout kyu and dan kumite there's not a single knee strike, and there's only one elbow strike and takedown (two if you do dan Glasheen style). Elaborate this-way-then-that-way sequences exist that could never occur on the street. Why? I think it has more to do with learning karate than learning how to fight. I have no problem with the karate-DO in that respect; in fact I very much enjoy it. But I think kata take care of it.
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Tim Ahearn
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A pretty basic question
I've long considered the progression of learning from white belts to seniors and wondered how drills should best adapt to that learning.
Our beginners tend to do kyu kumites that are unrealistic, of course. The punches aren't dangerous. The blocks are lazy, the counters unlikely to work against anyone. By the time things are looking better, by definition they're no longer beginners.
But when I look at the beginner drills, I do wonder if I would want my students to fight that way in real life. Backing up in kyu kumite, for instance. When they do that in sparring they get creamed.
Of course they're not ready to fight the way I'd want them to in real life the moment they step into the dojo for their first class. But shouldn't we start forming good habits from the very first sparring drill? In other words, a realistic, nasty, knees and elbows and takedowns method with little to no retreating and kicks minimized and confined to simple techniques to low targets--they wouldn't be able to do it well, but they'd never be exposed to the suggestion that they handle a street fight by backing up then trying to hit under the arm. And I'm not sure they'd look worse doing that than kyu kumite.
Good habits from the beginning: has this been tried with a group of students (controlled, randomized, double blind!)? What were the results? What would people see as disadvantages? And how did I get this far off the topic of the thread?
Our beginners tend to do kyu kumites that are unrealistic, of course. The punches aren't dangerous. The blocks are lazy, the counters unlikely to work against anyone. By the time things are looking better, by definition they're no longer beginners.
But when I look at the beginner drills, I do wonder if I would want my students to fight that way in real life. Backing up in kyu kumite, for instance. When they do that in sparring they get creamed.
Of course they're not ready to fight the way I'd want them to in real life the moment they step into the dojo for their first class. But shouldn't we start forming good habits from the very first sparring drill? In other words, a realistic, nasty, knees and elbows and takedowns method with little to no retreating and kicks minimized and confined to simple techniques to low targets--they wouldn't be able to do it well, but they'd never be exposed to the suggestion that they handle a street fight by backing up then trying to hit under the arm. And I'm not sure they'd look worse doing that than kyu kumite.
Good habits from the beginning: has this been tried with a group of students (controlled, randomized, double blind!)? What were the results? What would people see as disadvantages? And how did I get this far off the topic of the thread?
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gmattson
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A pretty basic question
At the Hut, we have been experimenting with prearranged kumite and bunkai for years. I believe it is important to progress through various degrees of difficulty as one advances in rank. White belts do pretty simple and basic things, building confidence and technique along the way.
Brown and Black belts progress to some pretty realistic fighting while practicing the advanced bunkai and prearranged kumite. At the very highest levels of engagement, attackers find themselves pretty vulnerable using programmed attacks with just punches and overhead club attacks.
We know the bunkai have advanced as far as possible when no one wants to volunteer as attackers!
Granted, nothing is as realistic as an actual street fight, but aside from visiting your local bar to pick a fight, I highly recommend the multi level bunkai for testing your techniques.
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GEM
Brown and Black belts progress to some pretty realistic fighting while practicing the advanced bunkai and prearranged kumite. At the very highest levels of engagement, attackers find themselves pretty vulnerable using programmed attacks with just punches and overhead club attacks.
We know the bunkai have advanced as far as possible when no one wants to volunteer as attackers!
Granted, nothing is as realistic as an actual street fight, but aside from visiting your local bar to pick a fight, I highly recommend the multi level bunkai for testing your techniques.
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GEM
A pretty basic question
There has been a lot of talk of the effectiveness of "shooting" skills used by the BJJ guys over on Van Canna's forum lately. The vivid descriptions of how these guys skillfully avoid strikes while closing the gap and slamming thier foe to the mat has got me thinking and re-evaluating my skills.
I was doing kata the other day while envisioning one of these menaces coming in on me with each movement of the kata! It changed the EMPHASIS of my movements, but not the movements themselves. With no time to strike acurately, my body was inclined to pull the attacker helping his forward momentum - or in some cases emphasize the elbow driving down on J.D.'s favorite spot(top of the spine as it enters the brain)
Point is, the kata FELT very different. It DID feel effective. I know these are not new concepts, but I am very excited at how powerful these visualizations were and thier effect on my performance.
I thought my experience may pertain to this thread, and perhaps others could share thier opinions/experiences on visualization.
[This message has been edited by BILLY B (edited March 29, 2000).]
I was doing kata the other day while envisioning one of these menaces coming in on me with each movement of the kata! It changed the EMPHASIS of my movements, but not the movements themselves. With no time to strike acurately, my body was inclined to pull the attacker helping his forward momentum - or in some cases emphasize the elbow driving down on J.D.'s favorite spot(top of the spine as it enters the brain)
Point is, the kata FELT very different. It DID feel effective. I know these are not new concepts, but I am very excited at how powerful these visualizations were and thier effect on my performance.
I thought my experience may pertain to this thread, and perhaps others could share thier opinions/experiences on visualization.
[This message has been edited by BILLY B (edited March 29, 2000).]
