Religion
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Religion
J.D.,
You are right about "mainstream" buddhism not having a "deity" per se. The "Enlightened One", however, never affirmed nor denied the existence of a Deity (or dieties). For this reason, buddism is very flexible (and tolerant). This flexibility has allowed buddhism to meld with indigenious practices over the centuries, e.g. Ch'an buddhism (Taoism + buddhism) which later became Zen and Tibetian buddhism (Bon religion + buddhism). Today "buddhist practice" is utilized by other religions and believers to enhance their own practices. Thomas Merton, a Catholic monk, is famous for his exploration in and writings about buddhism.
With or without deity worship, buddhism does maintain "core" tenents which most "buddhists" would subscribe to in order to believe themselves as such. This is the acceptance of the "Four Noble Truths" and the "Eight Fold Path". These hold the diverse practices together as a religion.
Going back to david's question and others who have similar questions, it is important for them to know there are no such "core" spiritual tenents adopted as part of our Uechi-ryu practice. You can be of any spiritual/religious persuasion you want to be. There is no conflict here.
Likewise, there is no deity worship in Uechi-ryu. Generally, dojos may bow before and after a class to the front of the dojo where pictures of the Kanbun and Kanei are placed. But this bowing is not worship. It is simply a matter of showing respect for our predecessors in the practice. It is no more worship to bow to the pictures as it is to bow to our partners. The bow is reflection is a cultural way to show respect. Since we Uechi comes from such a culture. The bow is also adopted.
It is important to note that in certain, very traditional dojos (with mostly Japanese senseis), the front of the class where the pictures are hung can be place of spiritual significance. In such instances, that place is called the "kamiza" -- Kami (deity) + za (seat). "Kami's" (spirits/gods) are more a reflection of traditional Shinto beliefs. There is sense that "spirits" (good or bad) permeate all existing things is the world. The kamiza is the place where the dojo spirits preside. However, even in traditional dojos, the sensei will generally not explain what the kamiza is nor try to foster his/her beliefs on the students.
In most dojos, the front of the dojo is not the "kamiza" but simply the "shomen" (head) of the class. It can also serve as the "tokanoma" (?sp) (a decorative alcove) in which a beautiful piece of caligrahy, a picture, or a flower arrangement, or a combination of those are sparesely placed. The tokanoma is present in many traditional japanese homes. It's simplicity serves to attract the attention of the inhabitant or visitor, to invite them clear their mind. Again, no particular spiritual beliefs are being fostered on the student or observer.
Bottom line: in Uechi ryu, no one person or group is trying (as far as I am aware) to implement or dictate a set of spiritual beliefs across the dojos that profess to practice Uechi-ryu. There is general agreement about a "core" set of physical movements that define Uechi-ryu. And, even here, there are variations.
The general public should understand that Uechi-ryu is not a religious practice (as least not as generally defined). This is important because people should not be excluded from the practice because of their own individual spiritual believes. More important, they should never let a sensei or allow themselves to believe a sensei has some special "spiritual" status or power by the way of Uechi-ryu practice. S/he is as human as the lowest student. Walk away from such a self-professed deity wanna-be.
david
You are right about "mainstream" buddhism not having a "deity" per se. The "Enlightened One", however, never affirmed nor denied the existence of a Deity (or dieties). For this reason, buddism is very flexible (and tolerant). This flexibility has allowed buddhism to meld with indigenious practices over the centuries, e.g. Ch'an buddhism (Taoism + buddhism) which later became Zen and Tibetian buddhism (Bon religion + buddhism). Today "buddhist practice" is utilized by other religions and believers to enhance their own practices. Thomas Merton, a Catholic monk, is famous for his exploration in and writings about buddhism.
With or without deity worship, buddhism does maintain "core" tenents which most "buddhists" would subscribe to in order to believe themselves as such. This is the acceptance of the "Four Noble Truths" and the "Eight Fold Path". These hold the diverse practices together as a religion.
Going back to david's question and others who have similar questions, it is important for them to know there are no such "core" spiritual tenents adopted as part of our Uechi-ryu practice. You can be of any spiritual/religious persuasion you want to be. There is no conflict here.
Likewise, there is no deity worship in Uechi-ryu. Generally, dojos may bow before and after a class to the front of the dojo where pictures of the Kanbun and Kanei are placed. But this bowing is not worship. It is simply a matter of showing respect for our predecessors in the practice. It is no more worship to bow to the pictures as it is to bow to our partners. The bow is reflection is a cultural way to show respect. Since we Uechi comes from such a culture. The bow is also adopted.
It is important to note that in certain, very traditional dojos (with mostly Japanese senseis), the front of the class where the pictures are hung can be place of spiritual significance. In such instances, that place is called the "kamiza" -- Kami (deity) + za (seat). "Kami's" (spirits/gods) are more a reflection of traditional Shinto beliefs. There is sense that "spirits" (good or bad) permeate all existing things is the world. The kamiza is the place where the dojo spirits preside. However, even in traditional dojos, the sensei will generally not explain what the kamiza is nor try to foster his/her beliefs on the students.
In most dojos, the front of the dojo is not the "kamiza" but simply the "shomen" (head) of the class. It can also serve as the "tokanoma" (?sp) (a decorative alcove) in which a beautiful piece of caligrahy, a picture, or a flower arrangement, or a combination of those are sparesely placed. The tokanoma is present in many traditional japanese homes. It's simplicity serves to attract the attention of the inhabitant or visitor, to invite them clear their mind. Again, no particular spiritual beliefs are being fostered on the student or observer.
Bottom line: in Uechi ryu, no one person or group is trying (as far as I am aware) to implement or dictate a set of spiritual beliefs across the dojos that profess to practice Uechi-ryu. There is general agreement about a "core" set of physical movements that define Uechi-ryu. And, even here, there are variations.
The general public should understand that Uechi-ryu is not a religious practice (as least not as generally defined). This is important because people should not be excluded from the practice because of their own individual spiritual believes. More important, they should never let a sensei or allow themselves to believe a sensei has some special "spiritual" status or power by the way of Uechi-ryu practice. S/he is as human as the lowest student. Walk away from such a self-professed deity wanna-be.
david
Religion
Thankyou very much for the above information,very excellently and concisely stated. Part of the reason I posted this question is because of the profound effect that Uechi-Ryu has had on me. Studying under GEM the traditional way changed the way I precieve myself,others and the world. Sanchin not only includes all of the systems martial techniques but also is active meditation. The internal changes that take place while practicing are real but probably indescribale. For the same reason eastern religions sit,breathe,control their thoughts or hold postures we do kata. It's not generally explained but it is eventually experienced. I don't believe this is a negative regarding our style,on the contray,it's the real strength and meaning of what we do. The bonds that we feel toward our sensei and one another are spiritual and permeate our very beings.I agree with the above that this does not in any way interfere with our western religious beliefs.However,the shift in ones being-in-the-world can be changed forever,for the better by SANCHIN.Thankyou Uechi-Ryu. davids
Religion
J.D,
>>I would disagree that a religion requires a "diety."<<
Me too. But there is usually a set of core beliefs or tenents that is actively promulgated about transcendence of individual mind/body -- the "spirit" if you will.
>>You accept that Buddhism does not have a diety--at least "mainstream" or "original." You also cite its core beliefs. Does not Uechi have core beliefs? Does not Sanchin preach control over the mind, body and spirit?<<
I have heard of Sanchin being described as a method of learning to control mind/body/spirit. Beyond this cursury (I think) statement, I don't think there is a "generally accepted idea" of what this means, or least I haven't heard it. I don't think teachers are required to demonstrate or explain what this means. I don't think all Uechi teachers even subscribed to this trinity. For many, Uechi is simply a set of body movements and tactical concepts for self-defense purposes.
>>La! but what preaching exists in Uechi? Is not it just movements? There is no inherent belief system attached to them. I would argue that in order for Uechi to serve its purpose even as a self-defense--without all
that warm and fuzzy "self-actualization" stuff--it requires a mindset.<<
Again, is there a generally accepted "mind-set" being promulgated? I don't think so. Van sensei evidently doesn't so. I would even hazard to say that there are teachers out there who totally disagree with Van sensei's mindset. As far as I am concerned, they have every right to depending on their "purpose" for practicing Uechi-ryu.
>>Right, to address your more serious point, will Uechi exclude a belief system? It depends upon the believer. We mix and match tenets to suit our purposes and read in meaning where it may not exist. See chi
statement above. Thus, it is the responsibility of the individual
practitioner to consider whether or not he view Uechi as a religion and whether or not this can conflict with his current system.<<
I agree with you. As individuals, we do "mix and match" tenents as we deemed fit. Personally, I like this because it places responsibility on each of us to figure out what "it" is about. That is the crux of "spirituality" from my perspective. Spirituality is different from religion. The individual can search for spirituality in any form. Religion is organized, however, to promote and to define a certain form for how one's spirituality is realized. I think the "believers" of whatever religion can tell you the "form" and goal of that particular organization. Truthfully, I don't think the same can be said of Uechi-ryu. There is no general agreement among teachers, never mind students on this.
J.D., I appreciate your thoughts on this subject. I would love hear what the teachers think.
david
P.S. david: It is wonderful that your Uechi-Ryu practice has had such a profound effect for you.
[This message has been edited by david (edited 10-31-98).]
>>I would disagree that a religion requires a "diety."<<
Me too. But there is usually a set of core beliefs or tenents that is actively promulgated about transcendence of individual mind/body -- the "spirit" if you will.
>>You accept that Buddhism does not have a diety--at least "mainstream" or "original." You also cite its core beliefs. Does not Uechi have core beliefs? Does not Sanchin preach control over the mind, body and spirit?<<
I have heard of Sanchin being described as a method of learning to control mind/body/spirit. Beyond this cursury (I think) statement, I don't think there is a "generally accepted idea" of what this means, or least I haven't heard it. I don't think teachers are required to demonstrate or explain what this means. I don't think all Uechi teachers even subscribed to this trinity. For many, Uechi is simply a set of body movements and tactical concepts for self-defense purposes.
>>La! but what preaching exists in Uechi? Is not it just movements? There is no inherent belief system attached to them. I would argue that in order for Uechi to serve its purpose even as a self-defense--without all
that warm and fuzzy "self-actualization" stuff--it requires a mindset.<<
Again, is there a generally accepted "mind-set" being promulgated? I don't think so. Van sensei evidently doesn't so. I would even hazard to say that there are teachers out there who totally disagree with Van sensei's mindset. As far as I am concerned, they have every right to depending on their "purpose" for practicing Uechi-ryu.
>>Right, to address your more serious point, will Uechi exclude a belief system? It depends upon the believer. We mix and match tenets to suit our purposes and read in meaning where it may not exist. See chi
statement above. Thus, it is the responsibility of the individual
practitioner to consider whether or not he view Uechi as a religion and whether or not this can conflict with his current system.<<
I agree with you. As individuals, we do "mix and match" tenents as we deemed fit. Personally, I like this because it places responsibility on each of us to figure out what "it" is about. That is the crux of "spirituality" from my perspective. Spirituality is different from religion. The individual can search for spirituality in any form. Religion is organized, however, to promote and to define a certain form for how one's spirituality is realized. I think the "believers" of whatever religion can tell you the "form" and goal of that particular organization. Truthfully, I don't think the same can be said of Uechi-ryu. There is no general agreement among teachers, never mind students on this.
J.D., I appreciate your thoughts on this subject. I would love hear what the teachers think.
david
P.S. david: It is wonderful that your Uechi-Ryu practice has had such a profound effect for you.
[This message has been edited by david (edited 10-31-98).]
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paul giella
- Posts: 315
- Joined: Sun Sep 27, 1998 6:01 am
Religion
One of the simplest and most relevant ways to look at this question is to define the difference between a "religious" attitude and a "scientific" one. Religions profess a set of fixed beliefs which must be accepted as an act of faith, or a show of obeisance.Though a religion may tolerate dome debate over the exact interpretation of the holy scriptures, fundamental principles cannot be questioned. The word of the ultimate authorities, especially, cannot be questioned or challenged. This is as true of the formal, establishe world religions as it is of splinter-cults, or even the few "cult-like" dojos we have all encountered... the point being that the members ar expected to accept uncritically the teachings of the master, and to show ongoing devotion to the leader, who is elevated to superhuman (or at least supernormal) status in their minds. There is no room for doubt or question, and usually no room for new or revised knowledge.(i.e.; it is a constantly 'backward-looking' system in which there is the assumption that the originating master, or founding teacher, or spiritual godhead knew and revealed all there is to be known... the task of the disciple is to learn these ancient lessons, not to develop new ones.). Uechi-ryu can certainly be taught this way, and is, in some circles.
On the other hand, there is the so-called 'scientific' attitude, which teaches that on must study the lessons of the past and then build upon the with new knowledge, garnered through an unceasing devotion to seeking realevidence of the value of our theories. One must be willing to alter, or even abandon, old theories and beliefs when they do not stand up to the test of new data.
Someone once said "The hardest thing about getting new ideas in is getting the old ideas out"... and this applies fully to whether one approaches karate as a "religion", an "art" or a "science". I have seen it done all three ways. I personally favor the scientific approach. Sensei Mattson's Saturday class in Newton is the finest example I have seen of this approach...It has evolved into a kind of "teaching laboratory" in which we explore new interpretations of the old ideas, keep the ones that hold merit, and supplant those that do not. This is evolution in its best sense. If it is sacriligious then, so be it...in our group we are not a religion.
On the other hand, there is the so-called 'scientific' attitude, which teaches that on must study the lessons of the past and then build upon the with new knowledge, garnered through an unceasing devotion to seeking realevidence of the value of our theories. One must be willing to alter, or even abandon, old theories and beliefs when they do not stand up to the test of new data.
Someone once said "The hardest thing about getting new ideas in is getting the old ideas out"... and this applies fully to whether one approaches karate as a "religion", an "art" or a "science". I have seen it done all three ways. I personally favor the scientific approach. Sensei Mattson's Saturday class in Newton is the finest example I have seen of this approach...It has evolved into a kind of "teaching laboratory" in which we explore new interpretations of the old ideas, keep the ones that hold merit, and supplant those that do not. This is evolution in its best sense. If it is sacriligious then, so be it...in our group we are not a religion.
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Jackie Olsen
- Posts: 619
- Joined: Fri Sep 18, 1998 6:01 am
- Contact:
Religion
Anthony, JD, David, et. al ...If we look at the word "religion" we can consider that it once meant an "obligation between man and the gods." Later on the concept came to be used a monastic life. Emerging from this the French assigned its use as "practices or a way of life."
The modern concept, however, seems to be a regulation of rules and laws based upon a belief system.
An old Sensei from another style once told me that a student of life should have a "trident of power" when it came to spirit. The middle is your heart, your passion, that which you really connect to and teaches you about how to live and be in life. Then, you have two others that keep the center from becoming a rigid religion or belief system. The right tine is your male energy -- what helps you become active in this world. The left is your feminine energy, that which helps you become intuitive and receptive. In this way, one is not stuck into one pattern or belief system.
Jackie
The modern concept, however, seems to be a regulation of rules and laws based upon a belief system.
An old Sensei from another style once told me that a student of life should have a "trident of power" when it came to spirit. The middle is your heart, your passion, that which you really connect to and teaches you about how to live and be in life. Then, you have two others that keep the center from becoming a rigid religion or belief system. The right tine is your male energy -- what helps you become active in this world. The left is your feminine energy, that which helps you become intuitive and receptive. In this way, one is not stuck into one pattern or belief system.
Jackie
Religion
Ike,
I still stand by that statement. And, yes, I think we are probably more in agreement than disagreement.
J.D. believes and makes a persuasive argument martial arts styles can be akin to "religion." I know it can be, just as any group of people who come together, share similar ideas, and evolve their relationships and ideas together can take on a "religious" overtone. But religion is not necessarily "cultish", spirituality is not necessarily "religion", ideas are not action, though it could lead to action.
I share your concern and abhorrence about cults. I have personal experience with people I am closed to who became involved with cult-like groups. I can my feel my capability for violence well up when I see the actual exploitation and manipulaton of cult like groups, just as do whenever I see any predator feeding on the weak. But my response is to the actual actions and not to a espoused ideas/ideals.
I encounter folks with ideas/ideals different than my own quite often. I may disagree but I don't necessarily have to disrespect. I certainly do not have to take violent action. For me, this is what living in a pluralistic and democratic society is about -- the tolerance of differences and the freedom to pursue our beliefs. Tolerance of differences, however, does not extend to tolerating exploitation nor abuse.
My gut reaction in the other thread was that Rick was exploring an idea. I know Rick enough to be assured he is neither submitting to a cult nor perpetuating one. Thus, perhaps, my contentious response to your posts.
>>Most karate schools have a Dojo Oath or Prayer - many demand a loyalty to a particular way, school or teacher. In others, the sense of 'binding' or obligation may come about through other means, such as a sense of camaraderie or companionship. In that way, it is hard to see how a committed student of Uechi-ryu who has been training, lets say for 20 years, is not actually following a 'religion', especially if he considers his practice to be more of a 'way of life' than merely a physical workout.<<
Again, my "practice" and my "way of life" are mine. I've been training for now thirty years and it is more than about physical training. Yet, I have not and will not bow to anyone out of submission. My resolve in this regard is stronger than ever. Though we may each come to our practices with different physical skills, we are, in my opinion, free and equal and human beings. Try to take my freedom, you have better be ready to try to take my life because I will be trying take away yours.
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited May 06, 2000).]
I still stand by that statement. And, yes, I think we are probably more in agreement than disagreement.
J.D. believes and makes a persuasive argument martial arts styles can be akin to "religion." I know it can be, just as any group of people who come together, share similar ideas, and evolve their relationships and ideas together can take on a "religious" overtone. But religion is not necessarily "cultish", spirituality is not necessarily "religion", ideas are not action, though it could lead to action.
I share your concern and abhorrence about cults. I have personal experience with people I am closed to who became involved with cult-like groups. I can my feel my capability for violence well up when I see the actual exploitation and manipulaton of cult like groups, just as do whenever I see any predator feeding on the weak. But my response is to the actual actions and not to a espoused ideas/ideals.
I encounter folks with ideas/ideals different than my own quite often. I may disagree but I don't necessarily have to disrespect. I certainly do not have to take violent action. For me, this is what living in a pluralistic and democratic society is about -- the tolerance of differences and the freedom to pursue our beliefs. Tolerance of differences, however, does not extend to tolerating exploitation nor abuse.
My gut reaction in the other thread was that Rick was exploring an idea. I know Rick enough to be assured he is neither submitting to a cult nor perpetuating one. Thus, perhaps, my contentious response to your posts.
>>Most karate schools have a Dojo Oath or Prayer - many demand a loyalty to a particular way, school or teacher. In others, the sense of 'binding' or obligation may come about through other means, such as a sense of camaraderie or companionship. In that way, it is hard to see how a committed student of Uechi-ryu who has been training, lets say for 20 years, is not actually following a 'religion', especially if he considers his practice to be more of a 'way of life' than merely a physical workout.<<
Again, my "practice" and my "way of life" are mine. I've been training for now thirty years and it is more than about physical training. Yet, I have not and will not bow to anyone out of submission. My resolve in this regard is stronger than ever. Though we may each come to our practices with different physical skills, we are, in my opinion, free and equal and human beings. Try to take my freedom, you have better be ready to try to take my life because I will be trying take away yours.
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited May 06, 2000).]
Religion
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doctor X:
I am playing the Advocatus Diaboli here. Of course, Anthony, "diaboli" is a pretty direct translation of the Hebrew "stn" which is a "stumbling block" or obstacle. Thus, far before we had a figure--with horns and tail to boot--a satan was just something you fell over. "Good" or "bad" depends upon what the obstacle prevents you from doing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
SaTAHN: verb: to way-lay or oppose.
SaTAHN : noun: an adversary or opponent; the adversary, esp. in a lawsuit.
SitNAH: noun: accusation or charge.
All of these have the same root in Hebrew, the letters Sin, Tet, Nun S-T-N, and are thus related.
The Jewish view of HaSatan can be found in the book of Job. It is clear here than The Adversary is definitely subordinate to God and does His bidding in accusing, opposing and testing individuals: rather like an ultimate Prosecuting Attorney.
The view of Satan as an almost equal enemy of God is not a Jewish view.
student
I am playing the Advocatus Diaboli here. Of course, Anthony, "diaboli" is a pretty direct translation of the Hebrew "stn" which is a "stumbling block" or obstacle. Thus, far before we had a figure--with horns and tail to boot--a satan was just something you fell over. "Good" or "bad" depends upon what the obstacle prevents you from doing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
SaTAHN: verb: to way-lay or oppose.
SaTAHN : noun: an adversary or opponent; the adversary, esp. in a lawsuit.
SitNAH: noun: accusation or charge.
All of these have the same root in Hebrew, the letters Sin, Tet, Nun S-T-N, and are thus related.
The Jewish view of HaSatan can be found in the book of Job. It is clear here than The Adversary is definitely subordinate to God and does His bidding in accusing, opposing and testing individuals: rather like an ultimate Prosecuting Attorney.
The view of Satan as an almost equal enemy of God is not a Jewish view.
student
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Allen M.
Religion
Is Santa really satan in disguise?
------------------
Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/ mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
------------------
Allen, Home: http://www.ury2k.com/ mirror: http://home.ici.net/~uechi/
Religion
It would appear that both figures have fascination with the color red...both are associated with horned and hooved herbivores...both have immense powers of being everywhere in a short time span...both have near omniscience as to when you sleep, when you wake, when you are good, when you are bad...both are supposed to dwell in climates inhospitable to mere mortal man....
Hmmmmmmm.
Fortunately, being Jewish I can ignore it all!
student
Hmmmmmmm.
Fortunately, being Jewish I can ignore it all!
student
Religion
Icon O'Clasm wrote,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>.
Most karate schools have a Dojo Oath or Prayer - many demand a loyalty to a particular way, school or teacher. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is this really the case, and are you talking specifically about Uechi dojos, or in general? I've only been to a couple different dojos, and maybe 3 non-uechi dojos, and I haven't seen anything like a Dojo Oath, and certainly nothing like a prayer in any of them.
And as for the loyalty to to something, I haven't seen any of that really either. I've seen respect demanded of students toward the instructor, system and eachother, but never any sense of binding loyalty like you'd get in the army or something.
Have I misunderstood part of this thread? Or is my experience just too limited to have seen a phenomenon that really is as prevalent as you say?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>.
Most karate schools have a Dojo Oath or Prayer - many demand a loyalty to a particular way, school or teacher. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is this really the case, and are you talking specifically about Uechi dojos, or in general? I've only been to a couple different dojos, and maybe 3 non-uechi dojos, and I haven't seen anything like a Dojo Oath, and certainly nothing like a prayer in any of them.
And as for the loyalty to to something, I haven't seen any of that really either. I've seen respect demanded of students toward the instructor, system and eachother, but never any sense of binding loyalty like you'd get in the army or something.
Have I misunderstood part of this thread? Or is my experience just too limited to have seen a phenomenon that really is as prevalent as you say?
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Religion
I have a few thoughts to add here.
J.D.
I have an interesting litmus test here. Can any Uechi Ryu "organization" get religious tax status? As you know, there have been many odd organizations that have acquired this tax-free privledge.
Paul
I believe your definition... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
All to throw some confusion into the debate.
- Bill
J.D.
I have an interesting litmus test here. Can any Uechi Ryu "organization" get religious tax status? As you know, there have been many odd organizations that have acquired this tax-free privledge.
Paul
I believe your definition... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
would not hold for the Unitarian Universalist religion. When I was a member of the Charlottesville church, we studied "the eight great religions", and were left to develop our own beliefs. We had Muslims and Christians and athiests side by side in our church. Education of the core principles of spirituality and religion was the primary goal. And...it had tax-free status as a church.Religions profess a set of fixed beliefs which must be accepted as an act of faith, or a show of obeisance....
All to throw some confusion into the debate.
- Bill
