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Rich Mooney
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There was an episode of "in search of" that dealt with touch healing. There was an experiment done with a person who had discovered that he had this ability without any training.
Three groups of twenty mice had a patch of skin removed from their backs. Each group was kept in a box with wire mesh over the top. One group was left alone, one was artificially subjected to heat, roughly corresponding to a human being, and one group was treated by this person laying his hands on top of the wire mesh for period of time each day.
The treated group healed before the others did.
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sean
Three groups of twenty mice had a patch of skin removed from their backs. Each group was kept in a box with wire mesh over the top. One group was left alone, one was artificially subjected to heat, roughly corresponding to a human being, and one group was treated by this person laying his hands on top of the wire mesh for period of time each day.
The treated group healed before the others did.
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sean
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Bill Glasheen
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I have yet to read the article in question. However I am prepared to comment now on what I see written below. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Did my hands laying on her body release some trigger points that resulted in the healing?
I don't think so, since I was just touching the surface of her skin wth my palms.
or
was it something else that medical science cannot account for: that there is an innate healing ability within all of us, and that the ability can be trained and built up and delivered on demand for a wide range of problems.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I spent the whole weekend finishing up a design of a study of the disease management program that our subsidiary - Health Management Corporation - sells to large employer groups. It is a controlled study, designed to remove many of the things that Mr. Mooney is taking advantage of. I want to take away placebo effect and mind/body effects and regression to the mean and other factors so I can isolate the efficacy of the known interventions. This is the way we understand the pieces and parts of the big picture.
The truth is that "medical science" does indeed understand many of the things going on here. There are a whole host of very simple things that these phenomena COULD be. The truth is also that Mr. Mooney will never be able to claim anything with his recordings because he has not run a controlled experiment to eliminate all the simple things that the observed phenomena might be. Using subjective assessment methods, he saw a sick patient, did something, and saw they got better. What does it tell us? Not much - yet.
Are these things that "medical science" takes advantage of today? Absolutely. It takes many shapes and forms. The simplest is something called bedside manner. One of my great mentors, Dr. Richard Edlich, once told me the power of looking into a patient's eyes, touching their shoulder, and simply saying "I can help you." This triggers some very wonderful mind-body processes that allow the patient to heal him/herself. There is a ton of literature out there that supports this mind/body power.
Sadly..."medical science" is way too enamored today with technology and modern pharmacology. It takes a great mind to be a good doctor. But it takes a great person to be a great doctor.
- Bill
I don't think so, since I was just touching the surface of her skin wth my palms.
or
was it something else that medical science cannot account for: that there is an innate healing ability within all of us, and that the ability can be trained and built up and delivered on demand for a wide range of problems.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I spent the whole weekend finishing up a design of a study of the disease management program that our subsidiary - Health Management Corporation - sells to large employer groups. It is a controlled study, designed to remove many of the things that Mr. Mooney is taking advantage of. I want to take away placebo effect and mind/body effects and regression to the mean and other factors so I can isolate the efficacy of the known interventions. This is the way we understand the pieces and parts of the big picture.
The truth is that "medical science" does indeed understand many of the things going on here. There are a whole host of very simple things that these phenomena COULD be. The truth is also that Mr. Mooney will never be able to claim anything with his recordings because he has not run a controlled experiment to eliminate all the simple things that the observed phenomena might be. Using subjective assessment methods, he saw a sick patient, did something, and saw they got better. What does it tell us? Not much - yet.
Are these things that "medical science" takes advantage of today? Absolutely. It takes many shapes and forms. The simplest is something called bedside manner. One of my great mentors, Dr. Richard Edlich, once told me the power of looking into a patient's eyes, touching their shoulder, and simply saying "I can help you." This triggers some very wonderful mind-body processes that allow the patient to heal him/herself. There is a ton of literature out there that supports this mind/body power.
Sadly..."medical science" is way too enamored today with technology and modern pharmacology. It takes a great mind to be a good doctor. But it takes a great person to be a great doctor.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
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Allen
You are not far from the truth. Expenses from the pharmaceutical end of our business have the highest inflation rate, and that portion of total medical expenses is close to eclipsing the costs for inpatient hospital costs. That's a pretty amazing trend.
The drug companies are extremely well funded. They also know how to run their business. If I listed the top ten drugs that we pay for in our business, anyone with a TV would recognize them in a heartbeat. My wife gets all the free meals she wants while the drug reps come in to hawk their new wares. Then they give her samples to give to their patients for free...knowing that they will be "hooked" and want refills.
We don't call it drug money for nothing. The parallels are extremely interesting.
I have nothing against the advancement of science and medical care. I just get upset when things that are cheaper and simpler are eclipsed by what is new and gets a great advertising budget. Thus we can get saw palmetto dirt cheap at GNC to help with the BPH, but why should we do that when health insurance covers finasteride - a much more expensive drug with little better efficacy? We do it because of the way the system works today. We have many good things about our healthcare system, but some things are downright screwy. The science of medicine is wonderful, but the art of medicine has lost its soul.
The good news is that all those pharmaceuticals are VERY HEAVILY scrutinized. I don't know what the heck all the many nasty side effects are for using ephedrine to treat respiratory problems or lose weight. But I do know that the FDA took phenylpropanolamine off the shelf completely - something that I gave my babies for years - because a very, very, very few adult women had nasty side effects. The effects were barely detectable in a generation of use, but that was enough to yank it. Meanwhile, Joe Bodybuilder can still buy ephedrine (Ma Huang is the "natural" Chines herb) like candy from GNC when he wants to get cut for his contest. And yes...quite a few have died from that medication due to heart arrhythmias. Go figure. So you see that at least I have a greater degree of confidence in what the mainstream system does offer, even if it hawks it like used car salemen from 5th Avenue.
So what's a mother to do? Well you could always invest in the drug companies...
As you can see, I am an equal opportunity cynic.
- Bill
You are not far from the truth. Expenses from the pharmaceutical end of our business have the highest inflation rate, and that portion of total medical expenses is close to eclipsing the costs for inpatient hospital costs. That's a pretty amazing trend.
The drug companies are extremely well funded. They also know how to run their business. If I listed the top ten drugs that we pay for in our business, anyone with a TV would recognize them in a heartbeat. My wife gets all the free meals she wants while the drug reps come in to hawk their new wares. Then they give her samples to give to their patients for free...knowing that they will be "hooked" and want refills.
We don't call it drug money for nothing. The parallels are extremely interesting.
I have nothing against the advancement of science and medical care. I just get upset when things that are cheaper and simpler are eclipsed by what is new and gets a great advertising budget. Thus we can get saw palmetto dirt cheap at GNC to help with the BPH, but why should we do that when health insurance covers finasteride - a much more expensive drug with little better efficacy? We do it because of the way the system works today. We have many good things about our healthcare system, but some things are downright screwy. The science of medicine is wonderful, but the art of medicine has lost its soul.
The good news is that all those pharmaceuticals are VERY HEAVILY scrutinized. I don't know what the heck all the many nasty side effects are for using ephedrine to treat respiratory problems or lose weight. But I do know that the FDA took phenylpropanolamine off the shelf completely - something that I gave my babies for years - because a very, very, very few adult women had nasty side effects. The effects were barely detectable in a generation of use, but that was enough to yank it. Meanwhile, Joe Bodybuilder can still buy ephedrine (Ma Huang is the "natural" Chines herb) like candy from GNC when he wants to get cut for his contest. And yes...quite a few have died from that medication due to heart arrhythmias. Go figure. So you see that at least I have a greater degree of confidence in what the mainstream system does offer, even if it hawks it like used car salemen from 5th Avenue.
So what's a mother to do? Well you could always invest in the drug companies...
As you can see, I am an equal opportunity cynic.
- Bill
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Rich Mooney
- Posts: 87
- Joined: Sun Nov 08, 1998 6:01 am
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Allen M.
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Hello mother Bill. I recently worked for a company who manufactured robotic devices that created new pharmecutical drugs in seconds and minutes by breaking selected molecules off compounds, thus creating entirely new drugs. They (the drugs) are being created far faster than the FDA can monitor, control and approve.
I am a fan of healing by touch when it goes by the name of Myofacial Traction (think that is the correct terminology).
I am a fan of healing by touch when it goes by the name of Myofacial Traction (think that is the correct terminology).
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I would be interested in seeing the article and the new column but cannot find them yet; would someone be so good as to put up the URL?
student
student
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gmattson
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Check out Sifu Mooney's article and my "whatsnew!" column. I know we will never completely resolve this issue, but we should be able to calmly and rationally discuss our views on the subject.
Best,
George
Best,
George
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Bill Glasheen
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- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
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Rich
* For the past year, I have gotten up every morning and commanded the sun to come up. I recorded the time of my command, the date, temperature, the relative humidity, the mold and pollen counts, and I even documented the daily horoscope from the astrological sign du jour. I have noted that it became daylight 100% of the time. Some mornings were less bright than others due to cloud cover, and I could only infer my success by the level of brightness. But daylight did indeed occur 100% of the time.
* In my past I did 5 years of research in cardiovascular surgery. When an experimental prep was going bad, we had a saying - All bleeding eventually stops.
* In a recent study at our health plan, we compared members who received one healthcare benefit (they had to see a gatekeeper before seeing a specialist) with members who received another (direct access to specialty care). In the direct access benefit, many more people with chronic low back pain got back surgery than those members who needed to see a gatekeeper physician first. Results of health status measurements showed that - as a whole - those people who got the laminectomies were in worse physical health than those people who were spared the scalpel. Nevertheless, those people who got direct access to the specialists and got their laminectomies reported being MUCH more satisfied with their medical care.
* Every time I leave trash in my back yard, dogs spontaneously generate.
It doesn't take a sliderule (who uses those things anyhow??) to see that something is screwy in each of these situations. This is why one needs controlled, objective measurements. I can no more take your word than I can the word of a used car salesman, no matter how good a guy you are. And any decent healthcare practitioner knows that (s)he often can only presume that something they did to a patient actually made them better when they walked out of the office or woke up the next day. One rarely knows for sure, even when one is practicing evidence-based medicine.
- Bill
* For the past year, I have gotten up every morning and commanded the sun to come up. I recorded the time of my command, the date, temperature, the relative humidity, the mold and pollen counts, and I even documented the daily horoscope from the astrological sign du jour. I have noted that it became daylight 100% of the time. Some mornings were less bright than others due to cloud cover, and I could only infer my success by the level of brightness. But daylight did indeed occur 100% of the time.
* In my past I did 5 years of research in cardiovascular surgery. When an experimental prep was going bad, we had a saying - All bleeding eventually stops.
* In a recent study at our health plan, we compared members who received one healthcare benefit (they had to see a gatekeeper before seeing a specialist) with members who received another (direct access to specialty care). In the direct access benefit, many more people with chronic low back pain got back surgery than those members who needed to see a gatekeeper physician first. Results of health status measurements showed that - as a whole - those people who got the laminectomies were in worse physical health than those people who were spared the scalpel. Nevertheless, those people who got direct access to the specialists and got their laminectomies reported being MUCH more satisfied with their medical care.
* Every time I leave trash in my back yard, dogs spontaneously generate.
It doesn't take a sliderule (who uses those things anyhow??) to see that something is screwy in each of these situations. This is why one needs controlled, objective measurements. I can no more take your word than I can the word of a used car salesman, no matter how good a guy you are. And any decent healthcare practitioner knows that (s)he often can only presume that something they did to a patient actually made them better when they walked out of the office or woke up the next day. One rarely knows for sure, even when one is practicing evidence-based medicine.
- Bill
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There are probably a few docs out there who think the placebo effect is useless, "fake," or something along those lines. The vast majority of MD's I've met understand that intervention with concern whether it be with touch, a pill, a scalpel, words, etc have positive effects. Most know that a positive outlook or religious faith or strong family or neighborhood support not only influence how one adjusts to illness but how well recovers from it.
So for RM the issue is whether people got better. No matter what the results of any test shows, the fact that they feel better supports continuing using qi to heal provided
1) there are no side effects that outweigh this benefit
2) there are no better therapies forgone because of a mistaken trust in a technique that *may* only have placebo power.
The question for BG and JD (and IJ) is whether there's any magic to qi beyond placebo, suggestion, etc. This is obviously a separate concern, and an important one, and thusfar, as far as I know, there's been nothing advanced to show that there is.
So for RM the issue is whether people got better. No matter what the results of any test shows, the fact that they feel better supports continuing using qi to heal provided
1) there are no side effects that outweigh this benefit
2) there are no better therapies forgone because of a mistaken trust in a technique that *may* only have placebo power.
The question for BG and JD (and IJ) is whether there's any magic to qi beyond placebo, suggestion, etc. This is obviously a separate concern, and an important one, and thusfar, as far as I know, there's been nothing advanced to show that there is.
