Bill sensei: Venus Williams has either developed on her own or copied the grunt from Seles. If you can get near a TV tomorrow between 10 and noon you can watch, and hear, Venus battle her sister Serena in the semi finals at Wimbledon.
Rich
Every breath you take....
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RACastanet
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
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Every breath you take....
This thread will concentrate a bit more on breathing and fighting. It is a continuation of the last thread: Where do we go from here. The topic of style drift and unusual practices began to concentrate on breathing alone.
At the end (page 2 of the thread), Van and I were focusing on the issue of the mechanics of various types of breathing. Van wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Bill,
I know you are, and I am much in agreement with what you write.
This "breathing thing" has been blown so much out of proportion that it confuses, rather than help most of us.
What concerns me the most is seeing 90% of Uechi-ka lock up their breathing in spite of breathing drills.
I think it was Thompson sensei who said that Master Uechi said to breathe naturally as one felt like it.
The human body functions well with movement mated to breathing as needed. The very thought of separating breathing from movement is very much a concern with me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well...I thought I would go to the original source, or as close as I could get. I believe Van will read this carefully and have a full appreciation for what it says - and what it does not say.
The following is in George Mattson's Uechiryu Karate Do, seventh printing (the "red" version of the book). I believe the very first printing of this book (the "yellow" version) was 1974, although pieces and parts of it were being sold as mini-books before that. This is posed as a direct quote in the book (page 88), although we know that Uechi Kanei's words would have been in Japanese and translated on the spot by a third party. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Remember the "screaming", and powerful performances of Monica Selles? She was number 1 women's tennis player for an extended period before she was stabbed in Germany by some idiot. She's still playing, last I checked, although not at the same level. It might be worth remembering in your head what she used to do. There was a noise, the hit, and then another noise. Basically that was a slight exhale, a breath hold during the hit, and an air release microseconds after she hit the ball. I think this is what Master Uechi was referring to. But...these are my words.
Anyhow, I thought it worth bringing in a direct quote from Uechi Kanei, and then have people contemplate the following.
1) Is this a genuine breathing method Uechi Kanei is referring to, or an explanation given of something natural he did - only when pressed to do so?
2) Were the Uechika on Okinawa obsessed with developing "the method" (the hssstt technique) because the other styles had one and they were feeling insecure? If so, is this a fair representation of what was done or a bastardization of a good idea?
3) Are the various explanations given of "the method" realistic, or post hoc rationalization?
Food for thought.
- Bill
At the end (page 2 of the thread), Van and I were focusing on the issue of the mechanics of various types of breathing. Van wrote <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Bill,
I know you are, and I am much in agreement with what you write.
This "breathing thing" has been blown so much out of proportion that it confuses, rather than help most of us.
What concerns me the most is seeing 90% of Uechi-ka lock up their breathing in spite of breathing drills.
I think it was Thompson sensei who said that Master Uechi said to breathe naturally as one felt like it.
The human body functions well with movement mated to breathing as needed. The very thought of separating breathing from movement is very much a concern with me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well...I thought I would go to the original source, or as close as I could get. I believe Van will read this carefully and have a full appreciation for what it says - and what it does not say.
The following is in George Mattson's Uechiryu Karate Do, seventh printing (the "red" version of the book). I believe the very first printing of this book (the "yellow" version) was 1974, although pieces and parts of it were being sold as mini-books before that. This is posed as a direct quote in the book (page 88), although we know that Uechi Kanei's words would have been in Japanese and translated on the spot by a third party. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I thought I would switch over now to Wilmore and Costill, Physiology of Sport and Exercise, 1994. In a section on "Problems Associated With Breathing During Exercise," they describe this breathing technique. They only caution that it is dangerous when done <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quoteIt is best not to be concerned with breathing, as the natural way is the best and correct way. At first, when the student is just learning, his body muscles are relaxed and the question of breathing never comes up. When he enters the phase of his training where he strongly focuses his muscles, if he doesn't worry about his breathing, all of his energies, both physical and mental, are concentrated on the tension, speed, and power of the movements. The teacher occasionally touches the student's side or stomach while the teacher is either in front of him or behind him. Because of the tension that is required for the Kata, the student's muscles will not allow him to take a deep breath, and what breathing is done is mostly up and down rather than in and out, without outward signs of breathing. It is also natural to hold one's breath during periods of strain, and then to release it in a burst afterward.
In the case of a martial arts strike, this is not the case. Their caution was only for people pushing or lifting heavy objects, a situation where one could be straining for seconds at a time. The only comment they made about the reason for doing such breathing was so that the person could <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quotefor an extended period of time
From my comments in the previous thread, I have expressed the opinion that - when lifting heavy objects or weightlifting - one should allow air release (even if restricted) to prevent the dangerous situation of extended periods of high intrathoracic pressure. Similarly I believe one should kiai - a form of restricted air release - when performing a maximal effort during a thrust.stabilize the chest wall
Remember the "screaming", and powerful performances of Monica Selles? She was number 1 women's tennis player for an extended period before she was stabbed in Germany by some idiot. She's still playing, last I checked, although not at the same level. It might be worth remembering in your head what she used to do. There was a noise, the hit, and then another noise. Basically that was a slight exhale, a breath hold during the hit, and an air release microseconds after she hit the ball. I think this is what Master Uechi was referring to. But...these are my words.
Anyhow, I thought it worth bringing in a direct quote from Uechi Kanei, and then have people contemplate the following.
1) Is this a genuine breathing method Uechi Kanei is referring to, or an explanation given of something natural he did - only when pressed to do so?
2) Were the Uechika on Okinawa obsessed with developing "the method" (the hssstt technique) because the other styles had one and they were feeling insecure? If so, is this a fair representation of what was done or a bastardization of a good idea?
3) Are the various explanations given of "the method" realistic, or post hoc rationalization?
Food for thought.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Every breath you take....
I thought I would add in this extra quote from the same page on George Mattson's Uechiryu Karate Do. Again, pay attention to what it says, and also to what it does not say. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited July 05, 2000).]
To translate this in terms of respiratory physiology lingo, all he is saying is that you should never exhaust your expiratory reserve volume. This doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't exhale when you strike; it just means that when you exhale, you shouldn't blow all your air out.When you exhaust your complete breath, a weak spot occurs, which should not exist in Karate. Keep your breathing circular so that at no time will you be weak. This way you can perform at any moment.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited July 05, 2000).]
Every breath you take....
I think people have a tendency to confuse staying focused in the stomach to having to hold their breath. Technically a person should be able to hold a strong focus in the stomach and still be able to talk, perform kata, or run up the stairs. Now the only way to do this is to breathe naturally. It seems more times then not when a student concentrates on focusing the stomach they hold their breath. Since staying focus is a very important part in throwing a strike eventually this practice transcends into throwing a strike. When performing a kata or any of the warm up exercises and you try to stay focused while holding your breath one of two things will happen, A) You'll pass out because you're not breathing, or B) You'll lose your focus. So far I've only seen B) happen. I think it might be a better idea to teach students how to breathe and still stay focused then to teach when to breath. In my own opinion I think this is what Master Uechi meant when he stated to "breathe naturally". Breathe naturally but stay focused.
Every breath you take....
I believe the correct way to perform any activity (exercise or sport) would require the breathing that the body demands at the time that it demands it. This would be natural breathing as I understand it, and I assume that is what Sensei Kanei had stated.
However...We should be teaching that...When beginning a kata, air should be taken into the lungs while returning from the bow position and forced down into the abdomen while getting into the heiko dachi position. This will cause the abdomen to swell and be focused. Then on each thrust, enough air is expelled to focus the energy into the thrust without completely exterminating all the air in the abdomen. On the subsequent return thrust the air that has been expelled is replaced. If there are multiple attacks within the movement, then the body will automatically exhale, hold and inhale as demanded.
The only time where there should be concern, for this breathing method is if the body has expelled all the air and an inhalation similar to the one that was taken during the bow occurs. If this happens then the body will not be focused enough to take a counterattack. The complete expulsion of air must never occur during any strike.
In the TC class, we do not make any additional effort to completely expell all of the air into the strikes. There is a exhalation similar to a quick blast of an air gun and the subsequent refresh of the air on the return.
When we perform our 3rd speed katas in this fashion we are never thinking about the breathing. If the breathing was a concious effort it would diffuse the strike, and make the movements laborous.
I have tried to perform the katas at third speed without releasing any air during the strikes, as we were taught to do in Sanchin as a white belt. When the kata was finished, I was breathing deeply and was having difficulty "cathing my breath". Talking immediately after was out of the question.
This is why I would advocate that we do not teach the breathing as the holding of the breath and making a "tsst" sound after the strike is completed.
A while ago, I read an article in the Brockton Mass newspaper, The Enterprise, about an artist who teaches children how to create the japanese characters of their language. She stated that the first principle to learning how to correctly form each mark was proper breathing. She taught the students to expell during each brush stroke. I assume that while drawing the brush from the paper the student would be required to inhale.
If breathing is TAUGHT while learning to write (japanese characters) then why do we NOT teach proper breathing when performing Uechi-Ryu?
However...We should be teaching that...When beginning a kata, air should be taken into the lungs while returning from the bow position and forced down into the abdomen while getting into the heiko dachi position. This will cause the abdomen to swell and be focused. Then on each thrust, enough air is expelled to focus the energy into the thrust without completely exterminating all the air in the abdomen. On the subsequent return thrust the air that has been expelled is replaced. If there are multiple attacks within the movement, then the body will automatically exhale, hold and inhale as demanded.
The only time where there should be concern, for this breathing method is if the body has expelled all the air and an inhalation similar to the one that was taken during the bow occurs. If this happens then the body will not be focused enough to take a counterattack. The complete expulsion of air must never occur during any strike.
In the TC class, we do not make any additional effort to completely expell all of the air into the strikes. There is a exhalation similar to a quick blast of an air gun and the subsequent refresh of the air on the return.
When we perform our 3rd speed katas in this fashion we are never thinking about the breathing. If the breathing was a concious effort it would diffuse the strike, and make the movements laborous.
I have tried to perform the katas at third speed without releasing any air during the strikes, as we were taught to do in Sanchin as a white belt. When the kata was finished, I was breathing deeply and was having difficulty "cathing my breath". Talking immediately after was out of the question.
This is why I would advocate that we do not teach the breathing as the holding of the breath and making a "tsst" sound after the strike is completed.
A while ago, I read an article in the Brockton Mass newspaper, The Enterprise, about an artist who teaches children how to create the japanese characters of their language. She stated that the first principle to learning how to correctly form each mark was proper breathing. She taught the students to expell during each brush stroke. I assume that while drawing the brush from the paper the student would be required to inhale.
If breathing is TAUGHT while learning to write (japanese characters) then why do we NOT teach proper breathing when performing Uechi-Ryu?
Every breath you take....
Recently at a Dan Promotional, the subject of one candidate's breathing was discussed in lenght by the panel after the test had concluded.
This panel consisted of 5 Godans and one Rokudan. No one on the panel had less than 17 years of Uechiryu training.
The previous 16 years, they were never exposed to the concept of the breathing that Sensei Canna teaches in his TC Class. Two on the panel were regular TC members and all but one had taken at least one TC Class.
Still the debate was focused on the proper breathing during performing kata. The Sensei (36 plus years of training) who was overseeing the panel does not advocate this type of breathing, and the fact that two candidates were performing at the test in this manner was disturbing to him.
I would like to see the Seniors and Super Seniors of Uechiryu put their collective minds together and standardize the breathing method that should be taught in the dojo. We have many very experienced and knowledgeable Seniors and Super Seniors who can analyze the proper way for Uechika to breath while performing kata.
There will always be some who would never deviate from the traditional way that they were taught and how they teach, but I believe that evolution would be good for Uechiryu.
Bill
Do you think that this is possible? Can the breathing be standardized to an acceptable method that is recognized by all the Seniors, regardless of who the teacher or organiztaion that they have learned from?
I would envision a test panel, of members from every organization or faction of Uechiryu and Shoeiryu, that could evaluate any candidate from any school by equal standards.
------------------
Len Testa
This panel consisted of 5 Godans and one Rokudan. No one on the panel had less than 17 years of Uechiryu training.
The previous 16 years, they were never exposed to the concept of the breathing that Sensei Canna teaches in his TC Class. Two on the panel were regular TC members and all but one had taken at least one TC Class.
Still the debate was focused on the proper breathing during performing kata. The Sensei (36 plus years of training) who was overseeing the panel does not advocate this type of breathing, and the fact that two candidates were performing at the test in this manner was disturbing to him.
I would like to see the Seniors and Super Seniors of Uechiryu put their collective minds together and standardize the breathing method that should be taught in the dojo. We have many very experienced and knowledgeable Seniors and Super Seniors who can analyze the proper way for Uechika to breath while performing kata.
There will always be some who would never deviate from the traditional way that they were taught and how they teach, but I believe that evolution would be good for Uechiryu.
Bill
Do you think that this is possible? Can the breathing be standardized to an acceptable method that is recognized by all the Seniors, regardless of who the teacher or organiztaion that they have learned from?
I would envision a test panel, of members from every organization or faction of Uechiryu and Shoeiryu, that could evaluate any candidate from any school by equal standards.
------------------
Len Testa
Every breath you take....
1] “In any case, there is agreement that sudden and explosive exhaling on striking techniques has the effect of making the technique stronger and more effective.” [Petitti]
This seems to be the majority view. So what are they missing from the Uechi-Ryu viewpoint?
2] “Some Karate schools actually use an "ibuki breathing" technique, which involves breathing by contracting the muscles in an isometric fashion ("ibuki" means "breathing" in Japanese). This has the effect of concentrating the martial artist's attention on the breathing itself” [Petitti]
Ever try that? Very good concept and very enlightening. It removes all perception of weakness upon the inhale.
3] “How one breathes in and out is just as important. While Ashtanga Yoga emphasizes breathing in and out only through the nose, only exhaling through the mouth can accommodate the explosive, outward force necessary for committed martial arts striking techniques. Also, there is the "Kiai," or yell, which is meant to bond one's psychological intensity with one's actual physical technique. It is often taught by martial arts teachers who want to ensure that students are breathing properly.”
So what’s the counter argument by the Uechi group and why!
4] “Coordinate breathing and synchronize it with your muscular activity. When you extend your arm, exhale and strike but conserve 50% of your air. Be sure never to expel all of your air at one time. When you inhale, your body becomes light. When you exhale your body becomes rooted to the ground.”[Shorin concept]
???????
5] “ Exhaling on the stroke, makes your impact more solid, creates a hard wall in your body in case you catch a counterblow, and it gets rid of carbon dioxide. Focusing on the exhale is the best way to give commitment to your actions from a mental viewpoint.”
How do you disagree with this?
6] “By properly exhaling during a strike your are constricting your lungs, thereby causing more power with a wider range of movement capability. You are controlling the adrenaline built up in your body to be released with greater exertion while exhaling, versus keeping it pent up inside during inhalation”
Here we go. Why is it that all the ancient masters never addressed the chemical cocktail response and its interaction with “natural breathing”?
Really, did any ancient masters do any research on breathing? How? From what source?
Be nice to hear what Dr. Eric Cobb and coach Scott Sonnon will have to say about breathing. …..
------------------
Van Canna
This seems to be the majority view. So what are they missing from the Uechi-Ryu viewpoint?
2] “Some Karate schools actually use an "ibuki breathing" technique, which involves breathing by contracting the muscles in an isometric fashion ("ibuki" means "breathing" in Japanese). This has the effect of concentrating the martial artist's attention on the breathing itself” [Petitti]
Ever try that? Very good concept and very enlightening. It removes all perception of weakness upon the inhale.
3] “How one breathes in and out is just as important. While Ashtanga Yoga emphasizes breathing in and out only through the nose, only exhaling through the mouth can accommodate the explosive, outward force necessary for committed martial arts striking techniques. Also, there is the "Kiai," or yell, which is meant to bond one's psychological intensity with one's actual physical technique. It is often taught by martial arts teachers who want to ensure that students are breathing properly.”
So what’s the counter argument by the Uechi group and why!
4] “Coordinate breathing and synchronize it with your muscular activity. When you extend your arm, exhale and strike but conserve 50% of your air. Be sure never to expel all of your air at one time. When you inhale, your body becomes light. When you exhale your body becomes rooted to the ground.”[Shorin concept]
???????
5] “ Exhaling on the stroke, makes your impact more solid, creates a hard wall in your body in case you catch a counterblow, and it gets rid of carbon dioxide. Focusing on the exhale is the best way to give commitment to your actions from a mental viewpoint.”
How do you disagree with this?
6] “By properly exhaling during a strike your are constricting your lungs, thereby causing more power with a wider range of movement capability. You are controlling the adrenaline built up in your body to be released with greater exertion while exhaling, versus keeping it pent up inside during inhalation”
Here we go. Why is it that all the ancient masters never addressed the chemical cocktail response and its interaction with “natural breathing”?
Really, did any ancient masters do any research on breathing? How? From what source?
Be nice to hear what Dr. Eric Cobb and coach Scott Sonnon will have to say about breathing. …..
------------------
Van Canna
Every breath you take....
When a person exhales tension is released, a person is at there most relaxed state at the end of an exhale. So why would you want to exhale during a strike? Wouldn’t that suggest that as the strike starts you are tense, and as the strike finishes it finally relaxes when you finish exhaling. If you start your strike when your body is tense energy is being wasted and the strike is slow. Striking and exhaling at the same time may create a strike that finishes quickly and powerful, but if you can see it coming because it starts slower then it should you’re never going to hit anything. A strike needs to be going 100 miles an hour right out of the shoot, not start at 50 and work up to 100.
Therefore, I would think you would want to start your strike at the moment of least resistance which would be at the end of an exhale. That way your body is relaxed and the power and speed are all being focused on the strike not at being tense. I was always taught this was the purpose of a Kiai. A true Kiai is done before the strike, not during, and not at the end.
Now you don’t want to exhale to the point of looking like a rag doll, being relaxed is a relative term. You need to keep you’re focus at all time. But again focus doesn’t mean being tense. One can be focused and relaxed at the same time.
Comments?
Therefore, I would think you would want to start your strike at the moment of least resistance which would be at the end of an exhale. That way your body is relaxed and the power and speed are all being focused on the strike not at being tense. I was always taught this was the purpose of a Kiai. A true Kiai is done before the strike, not during, and not at the end.
Now you don’t want to exhale to the point of looking like a rag doll, being relaxed is a relative term. You need to keep you’re focus at all time. But again focus doesn’t mean being tense. One can be focused and relaxed at the same time.
Comments?
Every breath you take....
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
In doing so (neither inhaling nor exhaling), the tension build up will in effect reduce the speed of the strike. But if one exhales before the strike is attempted, there could be excessive elimination of air in the abdomen that could cause that part of the body to be weak if a counterattack made contact there. To make the last sentence of the above quote work you must do as follows:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Sensei GEM:
You are correct when you say that it would not be wise to declare a specific way of breathing. However, there should be standard that everyone should follow if they are to be considered for a dan rank. Beginners are taught to breath in the fashion that the test panel (I talked about in my previous post) was discussing. I believe this method works fine for beginners because it stabalizes the body while trying to perform the movements. beginners rarely get much speed and have no proper form therefore do not emit sufficient power to make their breathing make that much of a difference. When you have been performing these movements with near perfect form and have increased the speed 10 fold over th epast 20 years, more relaxation and less tension is needed. I believe that the method of breathing that is taught to beginners is not the same method that the higher dan ranks should use. I have begun teaching this "new way" of breathing to my advanced juniors and have noticed much more speed and (when performed properly) power in their strikes and kicks.
I would like to see all the Uechi-ryu Senseis and Senior Instructors, who are on test panels, recognize that relaxation of the body is needed to increase the speed and that insufficient relaxation is acheived if one is holding in ALL the air in their lungs and abdomen as they begin their thrust.
------------------
Len Testa
Yes I agree that tension is released. That is why I do not agree that you should hold your breath until the strike is completed.When a person exhales tension is released, a person is at their most relaxed state at the end of an exhale. So why would you want to exhale during a strike? Wouldn’t that suggest that as the strike starts you are tense, and as the strike finishes it finally relaxes when you finish exhaling. If you start your strike when your body is tense energy is being wasted and the strike is slow. Striking and exhaling at the same time may create a strike that finishes quickly and powerful, but if you can see it coming because it starts slower then it should you’re never going to hit anything. A strike needs to be going 100 miles an hour right out of the shoot, not start at 50 and work up to 100.
In doing so (neither inhaling nor exhaling), the tension build up will in effect reduce the speed of the strike. But if one exhales before the strike is attempted, there could be excessive elimination of air in the abdomen that could cause that part of the body to be weak if a counterattack made contact there. To make the last sentence of the above quote work you must do as follows:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
“Coordinate breathing and synchronize it with your muscular activity. When you extend your arm, exhale and strike but conserve 50% of your air. Be sure never to expel all of your air at one time. When you inhale, your body becomes light. When you exhale your body becomes rooted to the ground.”[Shorin concept]
Sensei GEM:
You are correct when you say that it would not be wise to declare a specific way of breathing. However, there should be standard that everyone should follow if they are to be considered for a dan rank. Beginners are taught to breath in the fashion that the test panel (I talked about in my previous post) was discussing. I believe this method works fine for beginners because it stabalizes the body while trying to perform the movements. beginners rarely get much speed and have no proper form therefore do not emit sufficient power to make their breathing make that much of a difference. When you have been performing these movements with near perfect form and have increased the speed 10 fold over th epast 20 years, more relaxation and less tension is needed. I believe that the method of breathing that is taught to beginners is not the same method that the higher dan ranks should use. I have begun teaching this "new way" of breathing to my advanced juniors and have noticed much more speed and (when performed properly) power in their strikes and kicks.
I would like to see all the Uechi-ryu Senseis and Senior Instructors, who are on test panels, recognize that relaxation of the body is needed to increase the speed and that insufficient relaxation is acheived if one is holding in ALL the air in their lungs and abdomen as they begin their thrust.
------------------
Len Testa
Every breath you take....
Hi Len,
You pose good questions and valid concerns. GEM-sensei gave a wonderful, open-minded response, didn’t he? That’s what a karate master is! Remember our conversation about that? Think about it.
But a few points here should be made clear:
1] I practice both the so-called “Uechi breathing” along with “explosive breathing”! I believe that both methods have equal value and that in a real fight; both breathing patterns are used, consciously or not.
2] The “Explosive breathing” is nothing more but a manifestation of the compression forces at the end of the stroke / in the pull and push. It is something I do to relieve great internal pressure that I feel by the extreme compression that I take to my internal organs as I do the movements. Strictly a personal thing.
Is it right? I don’t know… Is it wrong? …Who knows….
Do I care? NO! That’s my way of doing things from time to time in my study and couldn’t care less what anybody else thinks of it. I am sure I could point out quite a few things I don’t agree with in any martial arts practitioner, including some of the Okinawan masters..so could you or any of us, for that matter..unless you are a thoroughly brainwashed subject living in your cocoon.
3] The “ burst release” at the end of my stroke is similar in duration to the Tsst sound we all hear in Uechi.
4] And let’s be clear on this: I DON’T TEACH BREATHING IN MY CLASSES…IN FACT I RECOMMEND THAT A TC STUDENT STICK TO THE ORIGINAL UECHI BREATHING METHOD.
The quick “burst release” I do, is entirely optional as a “specialty” device for a student to try.
If the student finds something useful there, fine, if not he should discard it.
5] Breathing, and response breathing under stress, is a very individual thing, and we, as teachers should not impose any method on our students. Let students breathe as it comes most natural to them, precisely as the two Dan candidates in question explained Monday night.
6] I had a conversation with Thompson sensei at Mr. Durkin’s banquet a few weeks ago, and he said that after training with Master Uechi for ten years, his understanding was that you could breathe naturally and normally without restrictions, including breathing out in the strike.
So the controversy will rage on forever..It is a very contested topic.
But never, ever, allow any “teacher” dictate to you or others how to breathe. And never apologize to anyone for the way you air flows in and out of your lungs.
Remember, most of the ones who criticize the way you breathe, don’t know themselves how they do breathe or will breathe when the $hit hits the fan.
As GEM-sensei said so aptly, they mostly will be all chocked up in Hyperventilation, skyrocketing blood pressure, while swallowing their tongues and the cotton in their mouths, in a street fight. That is why lots of people die of heart failure in street fights or even telephone confrontations. I have had quite a few of those in my investigations.
Let your people breathe any way they choose not withstanding any formal teaching methods.
------------------
Van Canna
You pose good questions and valid concerns. GEM-sensei gave a wonderful, open-minded response, didn’t he? That’s what a karate master is! Remember our conversation about that? Think about it.
But a few points here should be made clear:
1] I practice both the so-called “Uechi breathing” along with “explosive breathing”! I believe that both methods have equal value and that in a real fight; both breathing patterns are used, consciously or not.
2] The “Explosive breathing” is nothing more but a manifestation of the compression forces at the end of the stroke / in the pull and push. It is something I do to relieve great internal pressure that I feel by the extreme compression that I take to my internal organs as I do the movements. Strictly a personal thing.
Is it right? I don’t know… Is it wrong? …Who knows….
Do I care? NO! That’s my way of doing things from time to time in my study and couldn’t care less what anybody else thinks of it. I am sure I could point out quite a few things I don’t agree with in any martial arts practitioner, including some of the Okinawan masters..so could you or any of us, for that matter..unless you are a thoroughly brainwashed subject living in your cocoon.
3] The “ burst release” at the end of my stroke is similar in duration to the Tsst sound we all hear in Uechi.
4] And let’s be clear on this: I DON’T TEACH BREATHING IN MY CLASSES…IN FACT I RECOMMEND THAT A TC STUDENT STICK TO THE ORIGINAL UECHI BREATHING METHOD.
The quick “burst release” I do, is entirely optional as a “specialty” device for a student to try.
If the student finds something useful there, fine, if not he should discard it.
5] Breathing, and response breathing under stress, is a very individual thing, and we, as teachers should not impose any method on our students. Let students breathe as it comes most natural to them, precisely as the two Dan candidates in question explained Monday night.
6] I had a conversation with Thompson sensei at Mr. Durkin’s banquet a few weeks ago, and he said that after training with Master Uechi for ten years, his understanding was that you could breathe naturally and normally without restrictions, including breathing out in the strike.
So the controversy will rage on forever..It is a very contested topic.
But never, ever, allow any “teacher” dictate to you or others how to breathe. And never apologize to anyone for the way you air flows in and out of your lungs.
Remember, most of the ones who criticize the way you breathe, don’t know themselves how they do breathe or will breathe when the $hit hits the fan.
As GEM-sensei said so aptly, they mostly will be all chocked up in Hyperventilation, skyrocketing blood pressure, while swallowing their tongues and the cotton in their mouths, in a street fight. That is why lots of people die of heart failure in street fights or even telephone confrontations. I have had quite a few of those in my investigations.
Let your people breathe any way they choose not withstanding any formal teaching methods.
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Van Canna
Every breath you take....
I debated about whether to jump in or not... With such excellent, open-minded, and caring replies as those of a Master and a true Master's Master, any meager contributions that I can make will certainly fall far short of the previous levels of wisdom. If I humbly may, a few observations...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul_C:
When a person exhales tension is released, a person is at there most relaxed state at the end of an exhale. So why would you want to exhale during a strike? Wouldn’t that suggest that as the strike starts you are tense, and as the strike finishes it finally relaxes when you finish exhaling. If you start your strike when your body is tense energy is being wasted and the strike is slow. Striking and exhaling at the same time may create a strike that finishes quickly and powerful, but if you can see it coming because it starts slower then it should you’re never going to hit anything. A strike needs to be going 100 miles an hour right out of the shoot, not start at 50 and work up to 100.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Going from 0mph to 100mph "right out of the shoot" is a nice theoretical concept. Unfortunately, it requires infinite acceleration, which is impossible. At some point, the strike will be traveling at 50mph during the acceleration from 0mph to 100mph. The difference in "starting slower than it should" is the rate of change in the velocity (speed... actually, speed as a vector), which is acceleration, "a", and plugs directly into our power equation of F=ma. There are reasons for waiting until after a strike before exhaling and there are reasons for exhaling during a strike (see below).
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
In the middle of the infamous "oh$hitmoment", a true honest-to-goodness, "ohgodhelpme" attack, a kiai isn't necessarily even heard. IMNSHO, I disagree with your timing of the kiai, but understand your concept... I just don't think a pre-strike kiai is needed to exhale and relax properly for a strike.
Then again, a kiai, in fact, doesn't even need to be accompanied by a strike to be effective.
Wanna hear an example, just ask.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited November 29, 2000).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul_C:
When a person exhales tension is released, a person is at there most relaxed state at the end of an exhale. So why would you want to exhale during a strike? Wouldn’t that suggest that as the strike starts you are tense, and as the strike finishes it finally relaxes when you finish exhaling. If you start your strike when your body is tense energy is being wasted and the strike is slow. Striking and exhaling at the same time may create a strike that finishes quickly and powerful, but if you can see it coming because it starts slower then it should you’re never going to hit anything. A strike needs to be going 100 miles an hour right out of the shoot, not start at 50 and work up to 100.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Going from 0mph to 100mph "right out of the shoot" is a nice theoretical concept. Unfortunately, it requires infinite acceleration, which is impossible. At some point, the strike will be traveling at 50mph during the acceleration from 0mph to 100mph. The difference in "starting slower than it should" is the rate of change in the velocity (speed... actually, speed as a vector), which is acceleration, "a", and plugs directly into our power equation of F=ma. There are reasons for waiting until after a strike before exhaling and there are reasons for exhaling during a strike (see below).
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
It is true that a relaxed muscle/body can move with a greater acceleration than a tense muscle/body. That is why many martial arts styles train to be relaxed throughout the strike and tense only upon impact, at which point there is an immediate relaxing for the next move. Since acceleration is the rate of change in the velocity and the desire is to maximize that acceleration at the point of impact (to maximize force transfered into the target), then exhaling from the beginning of a strike, causing an increased relaxation tendency throughout, will create increased acceleration (not just velocity, acceleration), thus increasing the force transfered. For those that know/understand Canna-sensei's teaching of the various components of power, this is why the "vibrational" power in a strike works the way it does. It's also why Bruce Lee's "one-inch punch" worked the way it did/does.Therefore, I would think you would want to start your strike at the moment of least resistance which would be at the end of an exhale. That way your body is relaxed and the power and speed are all being focused on the strike not at being tense. I was always taught this was the purpose of a Kiai. A true Kiai is done before the strike, not during, and not at the end.
In the middle of the infamous "oh$hitmoment", a true honest-to-goodness, "ohgodhelpme" attack, a kiai isn't necessarily even heard. IMNSHO, I disagree with your timing of the kiai, but understand your concept... I just don't think a pre-strike kiai is needed to exhale and relax properly for a strike.
Then again, a kiai, in fact, doesn't even need to be accompanied by a strike to be effective.
Wanna hear an example, just ask. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Yes, relaxation is a relative term. And you're correct that most martial artists seem to think that kime' is the same as tension... Certainly one can be focused and relaxed at the same time. Don't we all live like that all the time?Now you don’t want to exhale to the point of looking like a rag doll, being relaxed is a relative term. You need to keep you’re focus at all time. But again focus doesn’t mean being tense. One can be focused and relaxed at the same time.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
For better or worse, that's my 2 yen's worth...Comments?
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited November 29, 2000).]
Every breath you take....
Panther
"Going from 0mph to 100mph "right out of the shoot" is a nice theoretical concept. Unfortunately, it requires infinite acceleration, which is impossible. At some point, the strike will be traveling at 50mph during the acceleration from 0mph to 100mph. The difference in "starting slower than it should" is the rate of change in the velocity (speed... actually, speed as a vector), which is acceleration, "a", and plugs directly into our power equation of F=ma. There are reasons for waiting until after a strike before exhaling and there are reasons for exhaling during a strike"
Please lets not bring physics into this my brain will explode
I stated it this particular way "going from 0 to 100 right out of the shoot" just to get my point across. Obviously one can't get to 100 without hitting 50 first. I felt it was an easy way to explain that you want you're strike to be at its top speed in the shortest possible time span. Which can only be accomplished if the body is relaxed. And a great way to relax the body is with by exhaling.
I also don't mean to imply one should hold their breath during a strike, In fact you shouldn't have to. Lets be honest it doesn’t take that long to throw a strike. If you throw the strike at the end of an exhale, you should have made contact and be back in Sanchin before you would need to take another breath.
Len:
I agree you shouldn’t breath out completely that’s what I meant by the “rag doll reference”.
Also I'm not talking about trying to teach a pattern of breathing. All I'm saying is if the body is at it's most relaxed state at the end of an exhale wouldn’t that be the best time to throw the strike?
"Going from 0mph to 100mph "right out of the shoot" is a nice theoretical concept. Unfortunately, it requires infinite acceleration, which is impossible. At some point, the strike will be traveling at 50mph during the acceleration from 0mph to 100mph. The difference in "starting slower than it should" is the rate of change in the velocity (speed... actually, speed as a vector), which is acceleration, "a", and plugs directly into our power equation of F=ma. There are reasons for waiting until after a strike before exhaling and there are reasons for exhaling during a strike"
Please lets not bring physics into this my brain will explode
I stated it this particular way "going from 0 to 100 right out of the shoot" just to get my point across. Obviously one can't get to 100 without hitting 50 first. I felt it was an easy way to explain that you want you're strike to be at its top speed in the shortest possible time span. Which can only be accomplished if the body is relaxed. And a great way to relax the body is with by exhaling.
I also don't mean to imply one should hold their breath during a strike, In fact you shouldn't have to. Lets be honest it doesn’t take that long to throw a strike. If you throw the strike at the end of an exhale, you should have made contact and be back in Sanchin before you would need to take another breath.
Len:
I agree you shouldn’t breath out completely that’s what I meant by the “rag doll reference”.
Also I'm not talking about trying to teach a pattern of breathing. All I'm saying is if the body is at it's most relaxed state at the end of an exhale wouldn’t that be the best time to throw the strike?
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Every breath you take....
I've been otherwise preoccupied, and it's probably a good thing. I very well may have jumped in too soon and found myself disagreeing with someone who ends up sounding like they agree with my point of view. Amazing!
To address Len's question, I've been agonizing over this whole breathing thing possibly as long as Van - if not longer. I've had a chance to study other styles and get a Ph.D. with a specialty in systems physiology while doing it. In all my years of agonizing over it, these are the two quotes I like best. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Now...there are a lot of things quoted and a lot said above. Some of it I agree with. Some of it makes no sense physiologically if you understand the principles. Rather than insult people, I'll make some points that may help clarify things.
* Given Uechi Kanei's statement, I refuse to believe that Uechi's style ever had A breathing method. Much of it - in my opinion - was added post hoc. Some of it makes sense in some situations. But when Van and I are both calm, we end up agreeing with each other a whole lot on the subject. Many people don't know what they are doing, and are mistaken when they think there is some classical breathing method to be preserved.
* I believe there is no one way to breathe in all situations.
* You can be tense in one part of your body, and relaxed in another. Let me say that a little stronger. At almost all times, some muscles are tensed, and some muscles are relaxed. A trained athlete gets very good at selective tension and relaxation. This is what separates the master from the hacker. Many of the discussions about tension above totally missed this point.
* One way or another, you need to breathe. You need to breathe the right amount. There should be neither shortness of breath nor hyperventilation.
* The reason for breathing between techniques is to uncouple the movement and the breathing. When I type, I do not exhale with every keystroke. These are rapid, low-power movements. Sometimes in a fight you make rapid, low-power movements, and your breathing should just go on about its business. If I had to synchronize my breathing with my typing, I .... w-o-u-l-d ..... t-y-p-e .... l-i-k-e ..... t-h-i-s.
* The reasons to breathe with movement are many. Sometimes with a high power movement, you want to tense the trunk. This makes a hard exterior as well as allows a solid conduit in the midsection so that movements of the legs and hips can be efficiently transferred to the shoulders and arms. Breathing out with some resistance or forcefully breathing accomplishes this trunk tension while also allowing the person to still breathe. It's like filling a tire with the right amount of air (the right pressure) to get the right tire hardness. Releasing the air while constricting a bit at the epiglottis regulates the intra-abdominal and intra-thoracic pressure much the same way that a weight on a pressure cooker does the same. You create internal pressure - but not too much. It is also mentally easier to mirror the power of your punch with a powerful diaphragmatic contraction.
* Anyone who has done a power event understands what a kiai is. If you've ever thrown a shot put, you probably have done a kiai. If you've ever tried to lift one end of a piano, you've probably at least grunted. That passes as a kiai. If you've ever attempted a single rep max in the weightroom, you've probably kiaied. It is the most natural thing to do. You create the right amount of internal pressure, and both your diaphragm and vocal cords mirror the spirit of the event by chiming in with perfect contractile harmony. Your max internal pressure is also a bit higher with a kiai than with a normal exhale.
* Breathing can affect mental status. Proper breathing methods have been shown to aid a person in regulating the autonomic nervous system. Translation - you can affect the release of "the chemical cocktail" if you know what you are doing. Adrenaline is there for a reason. You want the right amount of adrenaline - not so much that you spaz out, and not so little that you fail to make the extra effort required to save your life.
Now, do I personally have and teach a breathing method? Yes. Is it ONE way of breathing? No. Our kata are filled with all different kinds of movement and serve many functions.
* When you are lifting a body, you should exhale and/or grunt.
* When you are throwing a flurry, it's OK to hold your breath for a bit (uncouple the breathing from the movement). Your breath holding will be brief, and will not take on the characteristics of a Valsalva. In-between the movements, you should not forget to breathe as naturally as possible.
* When you are throwing an ippon, it is appropriate to exhale or kiai with the movement.
* When you are doing dynamic tension movement to exercise the body, it's OK to mirror the dynamic tension of the body with dynamic tension of the breathing (ibuki breathing) so that the diaphragm and intercostal muscles get exercised too.
* When you are in the body of sanchin and attempting walking meditation, it's OK to develop a rhythmic breathing pattern (either with or in-between movements) to enhance the walking meditation.
That's my method. Is it right? At least I've based it on sound, physiologic principles (whether I understand them correctly or not). That's the point - whatever you do, it must make sense. Don't do it just because it is tradition. Perhaps one day I'll learn more, and I will modify part of my method. I've changed before, and I'll sure as heck do it again in the future if it makes sense.
- Bill
To address Len's question, I've been agonizing over this whole breathing thing possibly as long as Van - if not longer. I've had a chance to study other styles and get a Ph.D. with a specialty in systems physiology while doing it. In all my years of agonizing over it, these are the two quotes I like best. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
- Uechi Kanei, from Mattson's Uechiryu Karatedo <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quoteIt is best not to be concerned about breathing, as the natural way is the best and correct way.
Steven King, godan and former green beret combat instructor.In Okinawan karate, breathing is important.
Now...there are a lot of things quoted and a lot said above. Some of it I agree with. Some of it makes no sense physiologically if you understand the principles. Rather than insult people, I'll make some points that may help clarify things.
* Given Uechi Kanei's statement, I refuse to believe that Uechi's style ever had A breathing method. Much of it - in my opinion - was added post hoc. Some of it makes sense in some situations. But when Van and I are both calm, we end up agreeing with each other a whole lot on the subject. Many people don't know what they are doing, and are mistaken when they think there is some classical breathing method to be preserved.
* I believe there is no one way to breathe in all situations.
* You can be tense in one part of your body, and relaxed in another. Let me say that a little stronger. At almost all times, some muscles are tensed, and some muscles are relaxed. A trained athlete gets very good at selective tension and relaxation. This is what separates the master from the hacker. Many of the discussions about tension above totally missed this point.
* One way or another, you need to breathe. You need to breathe the right amount. There should be neither shortness of breath nor hyperventilation.
* The reason for breathing between techniques is to uncouple the movement and the breathing. When I type, I do not exhale with every keystroke. These are rapid, low-power movements. Sometimes in a fight you make rapid, low-power movements, and your breathing should just go on about its business. If I had to synchronize my breathing with my typing, I .... w-o-u-l-d ..... t-y-p-e .... l-i-k-e ..... t-h-i-s.
* The reasons to breathe with movement are many. Sometimes with a high power movement, you want to tense the trunk. This makes a hard exterior as well as allows a solid conduit in the midsection so that movements of the legs and hips can be efficiently transferred to the shoulders and arms. Breathing out with some resistance or forcefully breathing accomplishes this trunk tension while also allowing the person to still breathe. It's like filling a tire with the right amount of air (the right pressure) to get the right tire hardness. Releasing the air while constricting a bit at the epiglottis regulates the intra-abdominal and intra-thoracic pressure much the same way that a weight on a pressure cooker does the same. You create internal pressure - but not too much. It is also mentally easier to mirror the power of your punch with a powerful diaphragmatic contraction.
* Anyone who has done a power event understands what a kiai is. If you've ever thrown a shot put, you probably have done a kiai. If you've ever tried to lift one end of a piano, you've probably at least grunted. That passes as a kiai. If you've ever attempted a single rep max in the weightroom, you've probably kiaied. It is the most natural thing to do. You create the right amount of internal pressure, and both your diaphragm and vocal cords mirror the spirit of the event by chiming in with perfect contractile harmony. Your max internal pressure is also a bit higher with a kiai than with a normal exhale.
* Breathing can affect mental status. Proper breathing methods have been shown to aid a person in regulating the autonomic nervous system. Translation - you can affect the release of "the chemical cocktail" if you know what you are doing. Adrenaline is there for a reason. You want the right amount of adrenaline - not so much that you spaz out, and not so little that you fail to make the extra effort required to save your life.
Now, do I personally have and teach a breathing method? Yes. Is it ONE way of breathing? No. Our kata are filled with all different kinds of movement and serve many functions.
* When you are lifting a body, you should exhale and/or grunt.
* When you are throwing a flurry, it's OK to hold your breath for a bit (uncouple the breathing from the movement). Your breath holding will be brief, and will not take on the characteristics of a Valsalva. In-between the movements, you should not forget to breathe as naturally as possible.
* When you are throwing an ippon, it is appropriate to exhale or kiai with the movement.
* When you are doing dynamic tension movement to exercise the body, it's OK to mirror the dynamic tension of the body with dynamic tension of the breathing (ibuki breathing) so that the diaphragm and intercostal muscles get exercised too.
* When you are in the body of sanchin and attempting walking meditation, it's OK to develop a rhythmic breathing pattern (either with or in-between movements) to enhance the walking meditation.
That's my method. Is it right? At least I've based it on sound, physiologic principles (whether I understand them correctly or not). That's the point - whatever you do, it must make sense. Don't do it just because it is tradition. Perhaps one day I'll learn more, and I will modify part of my method. I've changed before, and I'll sure as heck do it again in the future if it makes sense.
- Bill
Every breath you take....
Bill,
Great post.
------------------
Van Canna
Great post.
------------------
Van Canna
-
gmattson
- Site Admin
- Posts: 6073
- Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
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- Contact:
Every breath you take....
Len:
I'm a bit surprised and disappointed to hear that anyone would fault any effective breathing method at a dantest. I thought we had evolved beyond this.
One of the problems with all the disharmony and splits in the Uechi system, is the attempt to be unique and different. Once we can identify an area where we can draw a line and say, on this side you are with me and over there, you are not with me, seniors can force their students into a closed environment and prevent them from working with other groups or to allow them to think for themselves. Such attitude forms the foundation for cultist organizations.
I would hope breathing remains one of those flexible areas in which senior students and teachers can continue to freely interprete Uechi sensei's teachings, without fear of becoming an outcast in their dojo.
IUKF judges a candidate by the results of his training, not the method used to learn. A candidate will not pass if he/she is gasping for breath or indicates, through his/her actions that he/she is not up for the test.
It would not be wise to declare a single way of breathing, or for that matter, of any single style of performing the system. Such policies would stunt the growth and advancement of our style and encourage further splintering of our ryuha.
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GEM
I'm a bit surprised and disappointed to hear that anyone would fault any effective breathing method at a dantest. I thought we had evolved beyond this.
One of the problems with all the disharmony and splits in the Uechi system, is the attempt to be unique and different. Once we can identify an area where we can draw a line and say, on this side you are with me and over there, you are not with me, seniors can force their students into a closed environment and prevent them from working with other groups or to allow them to think for themselves. Such attitude forms the foundation for cultist organizations.
I would hope breathing remains one of those flexible areas in which senior students and teachers can continue to freely interprete Uechi sensei's teachings, without fear of becoming an outcast in their dojo.
IUKF judges a candidate by the results of his training, not the method used to learn. A candidate will not pass if he/she is gasping for breath or indicates, through his/her actions that he/she is not up for the test.
It would not be wise to declare a single way of breathing, or for that matter, of any single style of performing the system. Such policies would stunt the growth and advancement of our style and encourage further splintering of our ryuha.
------------------
GEM
