Snippets from the blade forum on a parallel discussion:
“I have pointedly studied athletic breathing for some 36 years now, and very early in my learning managed to internalize proper breathing, and now coordinate my breathing and movement without conscious thought.
Many of the verbal expression (kiai) and breathing techniques of the various martial arts began with an understanding of these principles, and successive generations have forgotten the "why" and allowed the movement and breathing practices to drift culturally.
Any time we do something deliberate, such as lifting a weight from the floor, we make an informal plan of the event, and a vision of how it will go.
We intuit from life experience when we will experience peak moments of stress, especially as regards our lower back.
As we squat to lift something heavy, we inflate our lungs, and, in Europe and America, as we assume the load we stop our breath with our throat, tongue and lips, and maintain a pressurized torso as we lift.
This works.
It works better if we purse our lips and allow a steady escape of air.
The escaping air, like the internal fluid apertures in a hydraulic shock absorber, allows some shock or peak load absorption.
In addition to vertical loads, such as lifting, we have horizontal loads, such as striking, and with a little thought and practice we can determine when to inhale, when to pressurize, and how much air to allow as an escape-safety valve. “
………
“In Uechi Ryu (an Okinawan-Chinese style) we are supposed to hold our breath as we strike, and exhale slightly immediately afterward. There are various explanations as to the "why" for Uechi Ryu and I don't think anybody's explanation is really better than the others. If you are interested in some of their opinions (some of them get to be pretty technical) you can check their archive of forums and articles (www.uechi-ryu.com).
In Dr Yang's The Essence Of Shaolin White Crane (his email: ymaa@aol.com) he mentioned that the soft styles of Chinese martial art usually hold their breath as they strike, but the hard styles exhale as they strike. I don't have his book anymore and I don't remember his reasoning.
Holding ones breath while exerting power is sort of contrary to most other exhaustive type of sports or activities, and for me it is almost unnatural. I only do it when I am practicing my kata because I was taught that way although I notice that some rather high-ranking Uechi guys don't do it themselves.
In a sparring or combat situation I think that it is much more important to get the strikes in as fast and powerful as possible instead of worrying about holding one's breath or not. Just let nature takes its course - which, I believe, will probably be exhaling while striking.” [ O’Uechi Guy]
Every breath you take....
Moderator: Available
Every breath you take....
Again , from the blade forum……very interesting:
“ Well, to be honest I'm really not in the mood to give a crash course on breathing, but here's the basics as applies to what I study:
You've got four quantities of air, residual, supplementary, breath, and complementary. The first is what's always in your lungs and can't be exhaled even with effort, the second is what is exhaled with effort, third is self explanatory, and fourth is the volume over a regular breath.
Constrained exhalation should serve to pressurize the torso in a way that supports the spine, without blocking the air, and thus absorb peak moments of stress.
When a person blocks the movement of air they stand a higher probability of pushing their intestines up through the natural openings of the diaphragm or down through the natural openings of the lower abdomen.
These types of hernias happen all the time.
In addition, people commonly, especially as they age, stretch (balloon) and rupture blood vessels during moments of peak effort.
A person can die from a ruptured aorta or from a bleed in the brain, and so the body subconsciously restrains effort when it approaches dangerous levels.
As I watched the recent Olympic Games, I could easily observe the breathing of the sprinters during the slow-motion replays.
The sprinters exhaled through pursed lips with every step, or thrust.
They don't do this in order to exchange gases but in order to maximally pressurize their torso without going over a safe level.
With a minimal amount of study, mostly in letting go of bad breathing habits, the body will automatically regulate its internal pressures with constrained breathing.
A pressurized torso also stabilizes the shoulders and provides a foundational connection to the hips.
When I hit the heavy bag, I force air through the small opening of my lips, mouth and throat, sort of like oil passing through the small aperture of an automobile's shock absorbers.
The force of my exhalation and the restriction of my mouth should reach maximum intensity at the exact moment my fist impacts the bag and punches through its surface to its depths.
This gives me a constant line of support and force from my feet up through my hips, continuing through my torso and shoulders down my arm to my fist.
Without a pressurized torso, I would lose the connection between shoulders and hips, hips and shoulders.
If I hold my breath, my body will subconsciously limit my force to a non-injurious pressure level, unless my conscious mind forces the body to violate its own safeguards, and my conscious mind does have that power.”
………
“ Well, to be honest I'm really not in the mood to give a crash course on breathing, but here's the basics as applies to what I study:
You've got four quantities of air, residual, supplementary, breath, and complementary. The first is what's always in your lungs and can't be exhaled even with effort, the second is what is exhaled with effort, third is self explanatory, and fourth is the volume over a regular breath.
Constrained exhalation should serve to pressurize the torso in a way that supports the spine, without blocking the air, and thus absorb peak moments of stress.
When a person blocks the movement of air they stand a higher probability of pushing their intestines up through the natural openings of the diaphragm or down through the natural openings of the lower abdomen.
These types of hernias happen all the time.
In addition, people commonly, especially as they age, stretch (balloon) and rupture blood vessels during moments of peak effort.
A person can die from a ruptured aorta or from a bleed in the brain, and so the body subconsciously restrains effort when it approaches dangerous levels.
As I watched the recent Olympic Games, I could easily observe the breathing of the sprinters during the slow-motion replays.
The sprinters exhaled through pursed lips with every step, or thrust.
They don't do this in order to exchange gases but in order to maximally pressurize their torso without going over a safe level.
With a minimal amount of study, mostly in letting go of bad breathing habits, the body will automatically regulate its internal pressures with constrained breathing.
A pressurized torso also stabilizes the shoulders and provides a foundational connection to the hips.
When I hit the heavy bag, I force air through the small opening of my lips, mouth and throat, sort of like oil passing through the small aperture of an automobile's shock absorbers.
The force of my exhalation and the restriction of my mouth should reach maximum intensity at the exact moment my fist impacts the bag and punches through its surface to its depths.
This gives me a constant line of support and force from my feet up through my hips, continuing through my torso and shoulders down my arm to my fist.
Without a pressurized torso, I would lose the connection between shoulders and hips, hips and shoulders.
If I hold my breath, my body will subconsciously limit my force to a non-injurious pressure level, unless my conscious mind forces the body to violate its own safeguards, and my conscious mind does have that power.”
………
Every breath you take....
“ As regards exchange of gases, very few athletic or combat activities involve an aerobic process.
Generally, an athlete huffs and puffs afterwards in order to replenish the building blocks of the anaerobic process.
Even a boxer, who breathes hard during the fight, does so in order to recover from an ongoing, repeated anaerobic depletion (bicyclists and long distance runners get aerobic but not wrestlers and boxers).
One can hear a boxer whoosh as his fist impacts or as he gets hit.
This form of breathing/exhalation absorbs stress; it does not exchange gases.
Muhammad Ali's use of rope-a-dope in the Foreman fight involved impact-absorbing breathing at such a high level of sophistication that he could withstand the repeated body blows of arguably the hardest hitting body puncher in boxing history.
In resistance training, or weight lifting, one should observe a given movement for the highest moment of stress, usually at the beginning of a movement and at its conclusion or reversal, and accompany that moment with a forceful, constrained exhalation.”
Generally, an athlete huffs and puffs afterwards in order to replenish the building blocks of the anaerobic process.
Even a boxer, who breathes hard during the fight, does so in order to recover from an ongoing, repeated anaerobic depletion (bicyclists and long distance runners get aerobic but not wrestlers and boxers).
One can hear a boxer whoosh as his fist impacts or as he gets hit.
This form of breathing/exhalation absorbs stress; it does not exchange gases.
Muhammad Ali's use of rope-a-dope in the Foreman fight involved impact-absorbing breathing at such a high level of sophistication that he could withstand the repeated body blows of arguably the hardest hitting body puncher in boxing history.
In resistance training, or weight lifting, one should observe a given movement for the highest moment of stress, usually at the beginning of a movement and at its conclusion or reversal, and accompany that moment with a forceful, constrained exhalation.”
Every breath you take....
And more...from the blade..
" “ If one holds his breath, he runs the risk of internal damage in the form of hernia and aneurysm at peak stresses, whether force applied or impact received.
By blowing out, exhaling forcefully through constricted throat and lips, one can pressurize the torso and provide a safety valve at the same time.
I would never hold my breath during any intense physical activity, especially fighting, where your body needs as much oxygen as it can take in. Anyone who does is probably going to get gassed before the conflict is over.”
……
“I hope you won't be thinking about all these technical ways to breath in a REAL fight! Cause if you do... You probably won't have to practice it ever again!!!”
" “ If one holds his breath, he runs the risk of internal damage in the form of hernia and aneurysm at peak stresses, whether force applied or impact received.
By blowing out, exhaling forcefully through constricted throat and lips, one can pressurize the torso and provide a safety valve at the same time.
I would never hold my breath during any intense physical activity, especially fighting, where your body needs as much oxygen as it can take in. Anyone who does is probably going to get gassed before the conflict is over.”
……
“I hope you won't be thinking about all these technical ways to breath in a REAL fight! Cause if you do... You probably won't have to practice it ever again!!!”
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Rich Mooney
- Posts: 87
- Joined: Sun Nov 08, 1998 6:01 am
Every breath you take....
Bill:
Thanks
Finally, I have gained perception.
If one should teach breathing...I belive that it should be explained as you have.
------------------
Len Testa
Thanks
Finally, I have gained perception.
If one should teach breathing...I belive that it should be explained as you have.
------------------
Len Testa
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Every breath you take....
Body contact is something that I had not considered in my discussion, but is certainly an element of lung volume control.
Basically when you allow air to escape the body as you are hit, you are creating - using engineering parlance - a low pass filter. The analogy Van posted above of the shock absorber with fluid passing through a constriction is a great analogy. I also have these kicking pads I use that have air release valves in the top, and am always listening for when one of my students can make the right kind of whooosshhh sound come out the valve. Without that air realease valve in the pad, too many hard hits would probably rip the pad at the seams. The epiglottis serves the same function as the oil valve in the shock absorber, or the air valve in the kicking pad. The biggest difference between the shock absorber and the body with the epiglottis valve is that the fluid (air) is compressible in the body where it (oil) is relatively incompressible in the the mechanical device. Thus the compressibility of the air adds to the mechanical shock filtering.
Again, I don't think anyone is recommending one perform Valsalva maneuvers. This is basically holding your breath and straining like some people do when defecating, or women do when pushing a baby through the vaginal tract. Doing a Valsalva maneuver while lifting a heavy object or getting hit puts one at risk for hernias and blood vessel damage.
Remember my comment above <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
And thank you, Van, for reminding folks that fighting requires the metabolism to be in anaerobic (less than a few minutes exercise) or even phosgen (less than 10 seconds) mode. I have that discussion with the Tae Bo and "Kick boxing" (read aerobics with movements that are supposed to be martial in nature) folks. Some of them think they are learning to fight. You can no more learn to hit properly by doing repeated striking movements for fifty minutes any more than you can learn to sprint by running marathons.
Thus a preoccupation with oxygen delivery isn't really relevant when the encounter can (and should) be over in seconds to a minute. It's great that one can escape death and not look winded; it impresses all the chicks (sorry, my bad). But what is more relevant and critical is how the breathing complements the biomechanics of movement and the autonomic nervous system function.
One other thing that comes to mind - using the pressure cooker analogy and quotes from others - is there may indeed be a "break point" where one should consider breaking away from the "soft" breathing (inbetween movements) and go into the "hard" breathing (exhaling or kiaing with movement). Essentially it is governed by the intra-abdominal and intra-thoracic forces generated during movement. If they exceed a certain point, then the epiglottis should naturally allow air to escape. If not, then one can breath after the movement or flurry of movements - or - breathe when you need to take a breath. And all these internal pressures are generated to tether the external hardness needed to support the spine and transfer forces between hips and shoulders. Just a thought.
- Bill
Basically when you allow air to escape the body as you are hit, you are creating - using engineering parlance - a low pass filter. The analogy Van posted above of the shock absorber with fluid passing through a constriction is a great analogy. I also have these kicking pads I use that have air release valves in the top, and am always listening for when one of my students can make the right kind of whooosshhh sound come out the valve. Without that air realease valve in the pad, too many hard hits would probably rip the pad at the seams. The epiglottis serves the same function as the oil valve in the shock absorber, or the air valve in the kicking pad. The biggest difference between the shock absorber and the body with the epiglottis valve is that the fluid (air) is compressible in the body where it (oil) is relatively incompressible in the the mechanical device. Thus the compressibility of the air adds to the mechanical shock filtering.
Again, I don't think anyone is recommending one perform Valsalva maneuvers. This is basically holding your breath and straining like some people do when defecating, or women do when pushing a baby through the vaginal tract. Doing a Valsalva maneuver while lifting a heavy object or getting hit puts one at risk for hernias and blood vessel damage.
Remember my comment above <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
This - I believe - is why Uechi Kanei recommended <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quoteI believe there is no one way to breathe in all situations.
I think the biggest problem in the Uechi system with the common "soft" way of breathing (breathing with a quick exhale after the strike) is that some people try to force that one method on all aspects of their fighting. This is just as ridiculous as kiaing when you take a crap. What is natural and synergistic in one venue is counterproductive or even dangerous in another.It is best not to be concerned about breathing, as the natural way is the best and correct way.
And thank you, Van, for reminding folks that fighting requires the metabolism to be in anaerobic (less than a few minutes exercise) or even phosgen (less than 10 seconds) mode. I have that discussion with the Tae Bo and "Kick boxing" (read aerobics with movements that are supposed to be martial in nature) folks. Some of them think they are learning to fight. You can no more learn to hit properly by doing repeated striking movements for fifty minutes any more than you can learn to sprint by running marathons.
Thus a preoccupation with oxygen delivery isn't really relevant when the encounter can (and should) be over in seconds to a minute. It's great that one can escape death and not look winded; it impresses all the chicks (sorry, my bad). But what is more relevant and critical is how the breathing complements the biomechanics of movement and the autonomic nervous system function.
One other thing that comes to mind - using the pressure cooker analogy and quotes from others - is there may indeed be a "break point" where one should consider breaking away from the "soft" breathing (inbetween movements) and go into the "hard" breathing (exhaling or kiaing with movement). Essentially it is governed by the intra-abdominal and intra-thoracic forces generated during movement. If they exceed a certain point, then the epiglottis should naturally allow air to escape. If not, then one can breath after the movement or flurry of movements - or - breathe when you need to take a breath. And all these internal pressures are generated to tether the external hardness needed to support the spine and transfer forces between hips and shoulders. Just a thought.
- Bill
Every breath you take....
For those interested in viewing the full discussion excerpted by Van:
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum35/HTML/000701.html
student
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum35/HTML/000701.html
student
Every breath you take....
Hi Rich,
Thanks for getting involved in the discussion. Your input is very much respected. Hope all is well with you and family.
Bill,
Thanks. Now we are really getting somewhere.
Thompson Sensei did relate that Master Uechi had said one can breathe anyway he wants, including breathing out in the strike.
The problem is that too many of us, including high ranking Dans,are so brainwashed into "the right way" that they will not ask questions, or further their studies on this very critical subject.
Yet they are very dictatorial about the "right" breathing method with their students. I'd like to see how they would feel if one of them suddenly flops over with cardiac arrest in the middle of a Dan test.
------------------
Van Canna
Thanks for getting involved in the discussion. Your input is very much respected. Hope all is well with you and family.
Bill,
Thanks. Now we are really getting somewhere.
Thompson Sensei did relate that Master Uechi had said one can breathe anyway he wants, including breathing out in the strike.
The problem is that too many of us, including high ranking Dans,are so brainwashed into "the right way" that they will not ask questions, or further their studies on this very critical subject.
Yet they are very dictatorial about the "right" breathing method with their students. I'd like to see how they would feel if one of them suddenly flops over with cardiac arrest in the middle of a Dan test.
------------------
Van Canna
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Every breath you take....
The thought has ocurred to me more than once that many of the critics of the "soft" way of breathing may be creating a strawman argument. So I thought I'd bring up a few points and ask for someone like GEM to comment.
Above I have introduced some physiologic concepts associated with breathing and breath holding. When one is not breathing, several things could be happening. One can be in this nonbreathing mode with a relaxed diaphragm OR a contracted/contracting diaphragm.
Some who criticize the "soft" breathing methods call it Valsalva, and refer to the dangers of doing that. In a Valsalva maneuver, you close the epiglottis (valve at the top of the windpipe) and contract the diaphragm very hard. This face-reddening maneuver is functional in special circumstances. But it is generally to be avoided when lifting heavy objects so as to avoid herniation, blood vessel damage, and - when done at length - temporary interruption of cardiac output.
But...stopping breathing does not imply Valsalva. One could have a totally relaxed diaphragm and open epiglottis. If that's the case, then there is nothing to prevent a natural, passive exhale when hit in the gut. That's exactly what my kicking pad does. In that case, the criticisms levied above are unfounded. I have heard descriptions of sanchin as being "hard on the outside and soft on the inside." This would imply strongly contracted trunk muscles with a pelvic tilt while having a relaxed diaphragm and open epiglottis, no? This would certainly be the case inbetween breaths and with no motion.
And then what about during a thrust? Is the "soft breathing" practitioner supposed to maintain this same hard/soft state during the thrust, or does one perform a Valsalva that generates internal pressures low enough so as not to require pressure release via an exhale?
- Bill
Above I have introduced some physiologic concepts associated with breathing and breath holding. When one is not breathing, several things could be happening. One can be in this nonbreathing mode with a relaxed diaphragm OR a contracted/contracting diaphragm.
Some who criticize the "soft" breathing methods call it Valsalva, and refer to the dangers of doing that. In a Valsalva maneuver, you close the epiglottis (valve at the top of the windpipe) and contract the diaphragm very hard. This face-reddening maneuver is functional in special circumstances. But it is generally to be avoided when lifting heavy objects so as to avoid herniation, blood vessel damage, and - when done at length - temporary interruption of cardiac output.
But...stopping breathing does not imply Valsalva. One could have a totally relaxed diaphragm and open epiglottis. If that's the case, then there is nothing to prevent a natural, passive exhale when hit in the gut. That's exactly what my kicking pad does. In that case, the criticisms levied above are unfounded. I have heard descriptions of sanchin as being "hard on the outside and soft on the inside." This would imply strongly contracted trunk muscles with a pelvic tilt while having a relaxed diaphragm and open epiglottis, no? This would certainly be the case inbetween breaths and with no motion.
And then what about during a thrust? Is the "soft breathing" practitioner supposed to maintain this same hard/soft state during the thrust, or does one perform a Valsalva that generates internal pressures low enough so as not to require pressure release via an exhale?
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Every breath you take....
Van
I am in agreement with you that teachers should ask hard questions if their students are noticeable out of breath after a sanchin on a dan test. Somewhere, some way, somehow the process isn't working. Regardless of the method, that should trigger a failure. On the other hand, a board should not unduly quibble with success achieved via "unconventional" or "nontraditional" methods.
Now...WHY do some students experience this out-of-breath syndrome? It could be that some methods just don't work. Maybe. But more than likely, the student doesn't understand how to properly implement the method. Or maybe the method isn't a good match for the way the student chooses to move and fight and generate power.
This would make me ask the following questions:
* How much energy is the student expending during the kata? Are there inefficiencies in the movement and excessive tension in the posture that can be addressed? Is the studente merely poorly conditioned or overweight?
* Is the student maintaining adequate minute ventillation (defined as the product of respiratory rate and tidal volume)? If not, then is it the breathing rate, the breath volume, or a combination of the two? To what extent can this be changed and still maintain the principles of sanchin (e.g. shallow breathing)?
* Is the student demonstrating an excessive level of sympathetic (fight or flight) tone that results in a high demand for oxygen and/or excessive CO2 production? If so, then what does that imply? Is the "walking meditation" aspect of sanchin supposed to teach a student how to generate tremendous power while controlling autonomic response to the threat or stress? If so, has the student shown a failure to execute that function of sanchin?
I figured you'd enjoy those comments, Van.
- Bill
I am in agreement with you that teachers should ask hard questions if their students are noticeable out of breath after a sanchin on a dan test. Somewhere, some way, somehow the process isn't working. Regardless of the method, that should trigger a failure. On the other hand, a board should not unduly quibble with success achieved via "unconventional" or "nontraditional" methods.
Now...WHY do some students experience this out-of-breath syndrome? It could be that some methods just don't work. Maybe. But more than likely, the student doesn't understand how to properly implement the method. Or maybe the method isn't a good match for the way the student chooses to move and fight and generate power.
This would make me ask the following questions:
* How much energy is the student expending during the kata? Are there inefficiencies in the movement and excessive tension in the posture that can be addressed? Is the studente merely poorly conditioned or overweight?
* Is the student maintaining adequate minute ventillation (defined as the product of respiratory rate and tidal volume)? If not, then is it the breathing rate, the breath volume, or a combination of the two? To what extent can this be changed and still maintain the principles of sanchin (e.g. shallow breathing)?
* Is the student demonstrating an excessive level of sympathetic (fight or flight) tone that results in a high demand for oxygen and/or excessive CO2 production? If so, then what does that imply? Is the "walking meditation" aspect of sanchin supposed to teach a student how to generate tremendous power while controlling autonomic response to the threat or stress? If so, has the student shown a failure to execute that function of sanchin?
I figured you'd enjoy those comments, Van.
- Bill
Every breath you take....
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
Yet they are very dictatorial about the "right" breathing method with their students. I'd like to see how they would feel if one of them suddenly flops over with cardiac arrest in the middle of a Dan test.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's obvious: they would say:
"Cheyne-Stokes breathing is not Uechi, or the Okinawan equivalent
And now to be serious, a word of defense for Tae-Bo for conditioning: it works. It's a very good interval training workout; not solely aerobic, it pushes my anaerobic capacity.
Doing modified Tae-Bo my pulse rate reaches 178-182 beats/minute. At 51 - closing in on 52 - (I like to say I'm pushing 40 - backward - it's easier from this direction
) that's exercising at a rate for someone at least 10 years younger. My 85% capacity pulse-rate should be 144.
I modify Tae-Bo to do only useful motions (I never understood the popularity of speedbag punching in boxing, either).
This is not my workout for technique, albeit it uses techniques for an aerobic/anaerobic. workout.
And Lord, it surely makes one breathe!
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited November 30, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by student (edited November 30, 2000).]
Yet they are very dictatorial about the "right" breathing method with their students. I'd like to see how they would feel if one of them suddenly flops over with cardiac arrest in the middle of a Dan test.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's obvious: they would say:
"Cheyne-Stokes breathing is not Uechi, or the Okinawan equivalent
And now to be serious, a word of defense for Tae-Bo for conditioning: it works. It's a very good interval training workout; not solely aerobic, it pushes my anaerobic capacity.
Doing modified Tae-Bo my pulse rate reaches 178-182 beats/minute. At 51 - closing in on 52 - (I like to say I'm pushing 40 - backward - it's easier from this direction
) that's exercising at a rate for someone at least 10 years younger. My 85% capacity pulse-rate should be 144. I modify Tae-Bo to do only useful motions (I never understood the popularity of speedbag punching in boxing, either).
This is not my workout for technique, albeit it uses techniques for an aerobic/anaerobic. workout.
And Lord, it surely makes one breathe!
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited November 30, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by student (edited November 30, 2000).]
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Every breath you take....
student
I can't argue with what you wrote. And yet if you read what you wrote, you indirectly make my point.
One of my favorite trainers in the past was John Gamble, someone who - last I heard - was strength coach for the Miami Dolphins. I met him and trained with him when he was varsity strength coach at UVa. He used to berate some of the Varsity coaches (like the UVa baseball coach) who would have their athletes do ballistic, sports-specific weight motions like swinging weighted bats. As he used to say, "When you want to get strong, you focus on getting strong. When you want to learn to play your sport, then practice your sport. Don't confuse the two." The same can be said of aerobic conditioning. What do the boxers do to increase their aerobic fitness? They certainly don't do Tae Bo, do they? Not in the past, and not now. No...they run - period.
Furthermore, people with no martial background ingrain inappropriate muscle movement patterns from a fighting perspective. There would be much to un-learn if anyone started in Tae Bo and then wanted to learn how to deliver effective power. Fighting is NOT an aerobic activity.
But if you have no plans of ever learning to fight and you want to do an aerobic workout and you are bored with most routines, Tae Bo is certainly high on the entertainment scale. No arguments there. And I don't argue with the fitness results you achieved.
I realize that others are passionate about a different point of view on this subject.
- Bill
I can't argue with what you wrote. And yet if you read what you wrote, you indirectly make my point.
One of my favorite trainers in the past was John Gamble, someone who - last I heard - was strength coach for the Miami Dolphins. I met him and trained with him when he was varsity strength coach at UVa. He used to berate some of the Varsity coaches (like the UVa baseball coach) who would have their athletes do ballistic, sports-specific weight motions like swinging weighted bats. As he used to say, "When you want to get strong, you focus on getting strong. When you want to learn to play your sport, then practice your sport. Don't confuse the two." The same can be said of aerobic conditioning. What do the boxers do to increase their aerobic fitness? They certainly don't do Tae Bo, do they? Not in the past, and not now. No...they run - period.
Furthermore, people with no martial background ingrain inappropriate muscle movement patterns from a fighting perspective. There would be much to un-learn if anyone started in Tae Bo and then wanted to learn how to deliver effective power. Fighting is NOT an aerobic activity.
But if you have no plans of ever learning to fight and you want to do an aerobic workout and you are bored with most routines, Tae Bo is certainly high on the entertainment scale. No arguments there. And I don't argue with the fitness results you achieved.
I realize that others are passionate about a different point of view on this subject.
- Bill
Every breath you take....
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:
student
I can't argue with what you wrote. And yet if you read what you wrote, you indirectly make my point.
I never intended to contest your point that Tae-Bo or Cardio-Kickboxing, etc., are not good ways to learn actual, useful martial arts.
{T}he same can be said of aerobic conditioning. What do the boxers do to increase their aerobic fitness? They certainly don't do Tae Bo, do they? Not in the past, and not now. No...they run - period.
Don't they also jab, hook, cross, and throw combinations while they run? So long as you recognize what you are doing and using adequate form (not necessarily good or great form) for your purpose, don't you get an added benefit by practicing some of the movements you would actually use in achieving your aerobic/anaerobic fitness?
Furthermore, people with no martial background ingrain inappropriate muscle movement patterns from a fighting perspective. There would be much to un-learn if anyone started in Tae Bo and then wanted to learn how to deliver effective power. Fighting is NOT an aerobic activity.
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I do not presume to know nearly what you do about exercise physiology, but am I wrong in my belief that you have to have a strong aerobic base (although not necessarily one from Long Slow Distance) before you can profit from interval training? Fighting may not be an aerobic activity per se, but your needs for aerobic conditioning are primary; up there with mental agility and toughness, power, and probably before technique, in my opinion. Tae-Bo supplies that very well.
I use Tae-Bo for what it was designed: conditioning. In fact, I seldom use the tapes anymore: I do dynamic stretches and aerobic-anaerobic combinations (or kata/hyung/kuen to speed) while watching favorite episodic television reruns.
I agree with your criticisms as to its limitations as a martial training in and of itself, but felt compelled to make people look at it again lest the currently fashionable Tae-Bo bashing among serious martial artists blind some to its value within its own limits. That's all.
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited November 30, 2000).]
student
I can't argue with what you wrote. And yet if you read what you wrote, you indirectly make my point.
I never intended to contest your point that Tae-Bo or Cardio-Kickboxing, etc., are not good ways to learn actual, useful martial arts.
{T}he same can be said of aerobic conditioning. What do the boxers do to increase their aerobic fitness? They certainly don't do Tae Bo, do they? Not in the past, and not now. No...they run - period.
Don't they also jab, hook, cross, and throw combinations while they run? So long as you recognize what you are doing and using adequate form (not necessarily good or great form) for your purpose, don't you get an added benefit by practicing some of the movements you would actually use in achieving your aerobic/anaerobic fitness?
Furthermore, people with no martial background ingrain inappropriate muscle movement patterns from a fighting perspective. There would be much to un-learn if anyone started in Tae Bo and then wanted to learn how to deliver effective power. Fighting is NOT an aerobic activity.
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I do not presume to know nearly what you do about exercise physiology, but am I wrong in my belief that you have to have a strong aerobic base (although not necessarily one from Long Slow Distance) before you can profit from interval training? Fighting may not be an aerobic activity per se, but your needs for aerobic conditioning are primary; up there with mental agility and toughness, power, and probably before technique, in my opinion. Tae-Bo supplies that very well.
I use Tae-Bo for what it was designed: conditioning. In fact, I seldom use the tapes anymore: I do dynamic stretches and aerobic-anaerobic combinations (or kata/hyung/kuen to speed) while watching favorite episodic television reruns.
I agree with your criticisms as to its limitations as a martial training in and of itself, but felt compelled to make people look at it again lest the currently fashionable Tae-Bo bashing among serious martial artists blind some to its value within its own limits. That's all.
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited November 30, 2000).]
Every breath you take....
My two yen worth.
In boxing, I was told to breath out with the punch.
In aikido, I was told to breath out with the throw. Breathing in seemed to coincide with contraction and rooting. Breathing out is expansion and release of energy. This is expecially apparent in Kokyuhonage ("breath throw") techniques.
It seems in both boxing and aikido, there is a share belief that the release of explosive power coincides with the release of the breath.
Well, how do we apply this? In aikido, there is an implicit assumption of "one throw, one kill", i.e. everything is tied up with that one defensive counter. One times the breathing in with evading the initial attack and breathing out with the throw. In boxing, one times the breathing out with the "knockout blows", e.g. the cross or hook.
Given the general truth that most fights end in a matter of 2-3 strikes and in seconds, then it behooves one to practice striking with maximal force which is coordinated with breathing out. Yet, it is not unknown for some confrontations to extend beyond a matter of seconds and strikes. At that point, you have to breath in and that inhale may have to coincide with a punch going out. If you don't breath, or continue to try to exhale when there is no more, you risk quickly crossing over the anaerobic threshold. Not a good state to be in in midst of a fight. To put off that state you have to breath.
This can be tested on a heavy bag. You can well time breathing out (but not fully) on two or three strike combinations. But once you string combinations to five or over, you have to breath in even as a punch is going out. If not, you quickly cross over the anaerobic threshold and will not make it through the round without difficulty, if at all.
In reference to kata, in slow or medium speeds, one can probably timed the exhales with the stikes and the inhales in between without major disruption to respiratory flow. However, once the kata speeds up, it becomes impossible to time exhales with strikes. At this point, breathing has to be disassociated to varying extent with movements. If not, I think the practitioner will not have sufficient intake and will again cross quickly over the anaerobic threshold.
In sparring with beginners, we are very often see folks, even of athletic backgrounds, who "choke up" and burn out in mere seconds. They quickly burn out because of tension in their body and likely not breathing enough if at all in the mix of things.
I personally believe breathing out with the strike generates optimal power. But I believe more than anything else you have to breath. So the idea of just "breathing naturally" sits well with me.
Also, I believe time the exhale with taking hit helps with yielding and absorption. But this has limited practical purpose. The nature of being hit is that one is not expecting to be hit.
david
In boxing, I was told to breath out with the punch.
In aikido, I was told to breath out with the throw. Breathing in seemed to coincide with contraction and rooting. Breathing out is expansion and release of energy. This is expecially apparent in Kokyuhonage ("breath throw") techniques.
It seems in both boxing and aikido, there is a share belief that the release of explosive power coincides with the release of the breath.
Well, how do we apply this? In aikido, there is an implicit assumption of "one throw, one kill", i.e. everything is tied up with that one defensive counter. One times the breathing in with evading the initial attack and breathing out with the throw. In boxing, one times the breathing out with the "knockout blows", e.g. the cross or hook.
Given the general truth that most fights end in a matter of 2-3 strikes and in seconds, then it behooves one to practice striking with maximal force which is coordinated with breathing out. Yet, it is not unknown for some confrontations to extend beyond a matter of seconds and strikes. At that point, you have to breath in and that inhale may have to coincide with a punch going out. If you don't breath, or continue to try to exhale when there is no more, you risk quickly crossing over the anaerobic threshold. Not a good state to be in in midst of a fight. To put off that state you have to breath.
This can be tested on a heavy bag. You can well time breathing out (but not fully) on two or three strike combinations. But once you string combinations to five or over, you have to breath in even as a punch is going out. If not, you quickly cross over the anaerobic threshold and will not make it through the round without difficulty, if at all.
In reference to kata, in slow or medium speeds, one can probably timed the exhales with the stikes and the inhales in between without major disruption to respiratory flow. However, once the kata speeds up, it becomes impossible to time exhales with strikes. At this point, breathing has to be disassociated to varying extent with movements. If not, I think the practitioner will not have sufficient intake and will again cross quickly over the anaerobic threshold.
In sparring with beginners, we are very often see folks, even of athletic backgrounds, who "choke up" and burn out in mere seconds. They quickly burn out because of tension in their body and likely not breathing enough if at all in the mix of things.
I personally believe breathing out with the strike generates optimal power. But I believe more than anything else you have to breath. So the idea of just "breathing naturally" sits well with me.
Also, I believe time the exhale with taking hit helps with yielding and absorption. But this has limited practical purpose. The nature of being hit is that one is not expecting to be hit.
david
