Since the topics of "empty force" and Richard Mooney have come up on this forum before, the following link to a 7/19/2002 JREF newsletter might be of interest:
http://www.randi.org/jr/071902.html
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Glenn
"Empty Force"
Moderator: Available
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
"Empty Force"
As you may or may not know, James Rhandi was involved in the camp "Empty Force" test. In fact it was the bantering back and forth between Mr. Mooney and Mr. Rhandi that may have given us the opportunity to investigate things further.
I always have mixed feelings about such exposure. On the one hand, I think there are folks who truly believe the chicanery that they promote. The reasons for applying standards like double blinding, randomization, and control groups in science aren't easy for a person with an average American education to follow (most unfortunately).
On the other hand, Mr. Rhandi's scathing review of a certain someone who teaches light force or no touch knockouts as defense against a knife is right on target. Teaching such crap and making money on it is downright criminal. You go, Rhandi!
When is it time to talk, and when is it time to challenge and insult?
It is time to talk when anyone with an unusual claim is open to discussion and investigation. Will they put their abilities to test in a controlled setting? If so, then they are possibly the future torchbearers of new ideas and new ways. And they are entitled to make as much money as the market will bear.
But when said individuals come online, preach unbelievable abilities, promise results for you if you just buy another video and/or go to another approved seminar by an approved instructor, and then storm off after legions of insults when invited to be tested...
The sad thing about such monkey nonsense is that said individuals often wrap themselves in the cloak of legitimate material. In such venues, one can often find 50% truth. It's the nonsense though that deservedly destroys credibility. Whenever an individual in this world seeks to gain monetarily from dishonesty, they deserve what they get.
If it seems too good to be true, it probably is. If it's that easy to do, then anyone could do it and it ain't no big deal.
- Bill
I always have mixed feelings about such exposure. On the one hand, I think there are folks who truly believe the chicanery that they promote. The reasons for applying standards like double blinding, randomization, and control groups in science aren't easy for a person with an average American education to follow (most unfortunately).
On the other hand, Mr. Rhandi's scathing review of a certain someone who teaches light force or no touch knockouts as defense against a knife is right on target. Teaching such crap and making money on it is downright criminal. You go, Rhandi!
When is it time to talk, and when is it time to challenge and insult?
It is time to talk when anyone with an unusual claim is open to discussion and investigation. Will they put their abilities to test in a controlled setting? If so, then they are possibly the future torchbearers of new ideas and new ways. And they are entitled to make as much money as the market will bear.
But when said individuals come online, preach unbelievable abilities, promise results for you if you just buy another video and/or go to another approved seminar by an approved instructor, and then storm off after legions of insults when invited to be tested...
The sad thing about such monkey nonsense is that said individuals often wrap themselves in the cloak of legitimate material. In such venues, one can often find 50% truth. It's the nonsense though that deservedly destroys credibility. Whenever an individual in this world seeks to gain monetarily from dishonesty, they deserve what they get.
If it seems too good to be true, it probably is. If it's that easy to do, then anyone could do it and it ain't no big deal.
- Bill
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Rich Mooney
- Posts: 87
- Joined: Sun Nov 08, 1998 6:01 am
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
"Empty Force"
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
It is unfortunate that someone so willing to be tested should be harassed. You put your reputation up front and gave it an honest try. I believe you were sincere, and need to be complimented for such.
It would be equally unfortunate to continue to make claims without personal reflection or more external validation. Failure is the most important element of learning. We researchers spend much of our time with failure; it is a key ingredient of discovery. But what separates the successful from the unsuccessful is the ability to face up to negative findings and respond accordingly.
The passion you see today, Rich, has little to do with you. There will always be people in any venue that attempt to gain fame or fortune from false claims or mistaken abilities. To the extent that you have recognized failure and moved on, you must be commended. Whenever anyone insists on making unfounded claims, they can and should be called for it. And insults (not necessarily from you, Rich) only add to the perception of impropriety.
- Bill
...tiny and small minded magpies screeching on the roof.
It is unfortunate that someone so willing to be tested should be harassed. You put your reputation up front and gave it an honest try. I believe you were sincere, and need to be complimented for such.
It would be equally unfortunate to continue to make claims without personal reflection or more external validation. Failure is the most important element of learning. We researchers spend much of our time with failure; it is a key ingredient of discovery. But what separates the successful from the unsuccessful is the ability to face up to negative findings and respond accordingly.
The passion you see today, Rich, has little to do with you. There will always be people in any venue that attempt to gain fame or fortune from false claims or mistaken abilities. To the extent that you have recognized failure and moved on, you must be commended. Whenever anyone insists on making unfounded claims, they can and should be called for it. And insults (not necessarily from you, Rich) only add to the perception of impropriety.
- Bill
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jorvik
"Empty Force"
I can quite understand why people wish to believe in the "empty force" and other such things.I think it all comes down to our own mortality.Science seems to deny the existance of God, anything which opposes this belief is seized upon by people of a certain disposition......because it seems to validate their belief system. The average chimeister will have on board a whole host of seperate,disparate items......he will link together different religions, diets,exercise systems.......taken from different cultures, he will distort things take them out of context.....quote unrelated writings....all to cancel out the fear of his own mortality.
I am a great fan of Mr. Randi......he had his own programme on U.K. television, which I enjoyed enourmously........but Mr.Randi is, unfortunatly, the other side of the coin .Certainly his work at uncovering frauds is to be commended,and as an honest seeker of true spirituality I am grateful to him for showing the frauds and how they operate...........but, I still belief in what could be described as "Magick" ( for want of a better word)......science is very strange, most people are probably unaware that there are creatures on this earth that are immortal....I love the writings of Lyall Watson, who shows just how strange biology is
and I have witnessed things ...over the years which could support a lot of what the chimeisters wish to believe........unfortunately.......I don't think that it could ever be tested or proved.....it could be called "subjective"..but to me at least it isn't invalidated by that.
I would recommend a book to you,( believe it or not?).......but I found it a thumping good read.It is the autobiography of Michael Bentine( one of the "goons" along with Harry Secombe, Spike Milligan and Peter Sellars)........He was a scientist who studied the paranormal along with his father...a fellow scientist.
Bill
On another thread you said that I could call you that, if I was truly "Jorvick"......well I am.......
If you want the name that people in everday life call me then go to the articles page......and look under " the empty force and the real force"......which by a strange act of Synchronicity......was what brought me to these forums in the first place. And like "Hokusai".....who constantly re-invented himself......I much prefare JORVICK,
to anything else
JORVIK
I am a great fan of Mr. Randi......he had his own programme on U.K. television, which I enjoyed enourmously........but Mr.Randi is, unfortunatly, the other side of the coin .Certainly his work at uncovering frauds is to be commended,and as an honest seeker of true spirituality I am grateful to him for showing the frauds and how they operate...........but, I still belief in what could be described as "Magick" ( for want of a better word)......science is very strange, most people are probably unaware that there are creatures on this earth that are immortal....I love the writings of Lyall Watson, who shows just how strange biology is
and I have witnessed things ...over the years which could support a lot of what the chimeisters wish to believe........unfortunately.......I don't think that it could ever be tested or proved.....it could be called "subjective"..but to me at least it isn't invalidated by that.
I would recommend a book to you,( believe it or not?).......but I found it a thumping good read.It is the autobiography of Michael Bentine( one of the "goons" along with Harry Secombe, Spike Milligan and Peter Sellars)........He was a scientist who studied the paranormal along with his father...a fellow scientist.
Bill
On another thread you said that I could call you that, if I was truly "Jorvick"......well I am.......
If you want the name that people in everday life call me then go to the articles page......and look under " the empty force and the real force"......which by a strange act of Synchronicity......was what brought me to these forums in the first place. And like "Hokusai".....who constantly re-invented himself......I much prefare JORVICK,
to anything else
JORVIK
"Empty Force"
Rich, I can't get your link to work. Any suggestions?
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
"Empty Force"
My, my! It USED to work...
uV light has disinfecting properties.
- Bill
uV light has disinfecting properties.
- Bill
