An short indictment of the education establishment.

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Can you really bridge the gap between reality and training? Between traditional karate and real world encounters? Absolutely, we will address in this forum why this transition is necessary and critical for survival, and provide suggestions on how to do this correctly. So come in and feel welcomed, but leave your egos at the door!
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An short indictment of the education establishment.

Post by Valkenar »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>That's patently absurd.
...
Testing is the most effective way to discriminate between the competent and the incompetent.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely not. Standardized tests of intelligence measure do not measure intelligence. Firstly, intelligence is not a single trait, secondly, all of our standardized competence tests today are devised in such a way as to be comensurate with the original IQ test. The IQ was meant as a way to test for mentally retarded children. All of these tests show biased results along racial and class lines, independant of educational level.

If standardized intelligence tests measured innate competance than it would not be possible to study for them. But there are numerous programs that effectively increase participants test scores by teaching them how to take the tests.


Read "The Mismeasure of Man" by Stephen J. Gould if you want to know more about why intelligence testing is so ludicrous.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Elimination of testing is a cruel disservice to everyone. It discourages excellence and it makes critical self-evaluation and improvement impossible.
That simply is not true. I don't see how you can defend the idea that critical self-evaluation and improvement are impossible without testing. It's entirely possible to test one's understand of a subject or general reasoning ability without taking tests. Since you brought up martial arts, I would contend that the vast majority of the time, improvement in the martial arts comes from intropection, and asking for advice from seniors. There really isn't very much formal testing at all. Yes, your sensei will "test" your sanchin (which most people assert is a learning tool, not an actual test) and you test yourself in various ways all the time. If martial arts and academic knowledge are comparable (and you elected to compare them) then it would seem that in the 18ish year career of an average student, there should be maybe 2-4 tests that really scrutinize the student and give the testers an opprotunity to note highly specific defects.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Wouldn't they perform even better if they knew they were smart?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well all this self-esteem their pushing is trying to tell them they're smart. And succeeding at a test might make some feel smart (I never was able to take pride in it, since I've never had faith in the tests) but the students who fail the tests even though they really are no less capable than the ones who succeed (and there are lots of these), they will feel worse.
[Loss for society] is the real goal. The less skilled and educated we become as a nation, the more dependent we become on government.

Now *that's* patently absurd. Do you actually believe that?

Yosselle


[This message has been edited by Valkenar (edited July 15, 2001).]
Allen M.

An short indictment of the education establishment.

Post by Allen M. »

Just few quickies before the local war department launches a thermo-missile or two (flying frying pan)


On Panther’s 20:I know about and have seen in action, items 2, 3, 12, 14, 15, 17, 19, and 20, and agree.

Tests are important and students need to put their stuff on the line. I can't help thinking about some school systems who abolished sports programs because of the trauma suffered by the loosing team.

Hogwash!

If a person has a psychological problem with dealing with exams, send him to a contemporary school which requires no tests.

I was appalled that when my children started attending elementary schools, they did not group classes by ability level. When you mush everyone together, the smarter kids tend to get dumber. Where's the challenge? What good is it? So what if there's a group of academically non-inclined students out there. They may be able to excell in areas other than the three Rs', but don't force them on others who would otherwise be able to do much better pitted at the envelope of thir abilities.

There really is a "dumbing down" in our educational system.

Standardizd tests are great because it helps identify who can do what as well as who doesn't know jack. There are exceptions to this rule as there are with every rule, and those exceptions should be delt with, rather than punishing

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An short indictment of the education establishment.

Post by Yosselle »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Originally posted by Yosselle: [Dumbing us down] is the real goal. The less skilled and educated we become as a nation, the more dependent we become on government.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Valkenar's incredulous response: Now *that's* patently absurd. Do you actually believe that?
Yes. I do not believe that history is a collection of random events.

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An short indictment of the education establishment.

Post by Panther »

The current discussion about testing, along with an off-forum exchange, and adding the fact that a number of people on these forums are in Massachusetts... I thought I'd revisit the topic of Massachusetts' institution of testing for teacher candidates. Just to dispell any misconceptions or ire about the history and results of those tests.

<hr>

In Massachusetts, John Silber (formerly the feisty chancellor of Boston University and candidate for Governor) was appointed as the Chairman of the Board for the State Department of Education, putting the Education Establishment into a state of shock and fear. And they were right to worry.

Agree with his politics or not, Dr. Silber took a look at the low academic level of new teachers and decided something had to be done. He decided that the most likely route was to send large groups of graduate education majors packing! Silber's method was actually quite simple. Take the traditional teacher licensing test - which in most states is set at about the 10th grade level - and elevate it a notch or two. After all, Silber reckoned, the candidates were college graduates (the equivalent of "grade 16"), even if most had come out of "diploma mill teacher training schools" where they had majored in education.

At the time (and rather suprising to some of us), Massachusetts had been among the most lax states for teacher "certification." In fact, there had been no licensing test of any kind. Those who completed the approved teacher training programs were almost automatically certified for the classroom. Silber was determined to create a "true screen" that would eliminate the unqualified, which in essence meant that they were not bright enough or skilled enough to teach.

The new exam was custom-developed for the state by National Evaluation Services in Amherst, which tests teachers for eight states, including California and New York. It was first given to 1,800 aspiring teachers in Massachusetts in the spring of 1998. As previously posted, the results were catastrophic. The fact is that the results sparked a national alert and debate about education and the quality of American teachers almost as potent as the one that came after the Federal government's 1983 "Nation at Risk" critique of American student's achievement.

As previously posted, 59% flunked the first time taking the exam. The rejected teachers and their union, the National Education Association (NEA), were in an uproar at Silber and the State. Several of the candidates asked, "What should we do?" Silber, who resigned his post in March of 1999, responded, "Find another line of work."

The Education Establishment was equally frustrated. Veteran teachers were retiring, and schools nationwide had to hire 2 million more teachers over the next decade. How could they accomplish that when Massachusetts was eliminating half of the candidates - all of whom had successfully finished a four- or even five-year training course in education?

In July of 1998, a new group of some 2,100 teacher candidates took the test. The results were almost as startling. 47% failed this time. Since the state permitted applicants to take the test an unlimited number of times, one would think that by the second or third time the applicants would get the hang of it. That July 1,000 of those who had failed the first time tried again. Of that 1,000 only 60 (6%) passed with the second taking. The third time around, the failees did a bit better. A whopping 8% passed that screening. Using some rough calculations, it appears that in the final analysis, almost 40% of the state's aspiring teachers never made it to the classroom.

Despite objections from the Massachusetts Teacher's Association (a branch of the NEA) prompted by the high failure rate, the Massachusetts test was not a complex bar exam. In fact, the reading and writing portions were quite simple, much of it composed of essay questions that challenged the test-takers' ability to write lucid and correct English. In the world of modern education, where so much is subjective and knowledge can be and has been called "trivia," such objective criteria as correct spelling, grammar and punctuation, it seems, had passed many of the teacher candidates by. (some examples were previously given.)

Similar examples of teacher "certification" tests can be found in other States. But, unlike Massachusetts, these other state tests have traditionally had very low standards. And there is resistance in the Education Establishment to raising those standards.

The most common tests used nationwide are the Praxis tests. (I and II) These are used in 36 states.

Praxis I is a general test taken in the second or third year of teacher training. Praxis II includes several tests of knowledge ("content" as the Education Establishment calls it) for teaching specialties and is taken at or near graduation. Passing these exams in most states leads to near-automatic certification and licensing as a teacher.

For your reading pleasure, here are some sample questions from the Praxis I exam obtained from the Educational Testing Service (ETS). (Perhaps it's just me, but the test seemed disturbingly easy. Some questions, as you shall see, are an insult to even a marginally educated person.)

One of the questions describes a conversation between a customer and what she believes is "TransGlobal Airlines" about a flight from New York to Tokyo. In the question, the customer has dialed a wrong number. Is the question a difficult one about the distance between the two cities? Perhaps it is a tough question about the time zone differences vs. travel times? No. It is a multiple-choice question that asks whether the customer is contacting the airline by letter, radio, telegram or telephone!

Another question shows simple bar graphs of world crude oil production for nine countries in 1974 and 1975. One of the two side-bys-de bars for each country is black and the other one shaded. Is this a complex question about the countries? About their oil reserves or production? No. It simply asks how many of the countries produced more oil in 1975 than 1974. Nothing more! All that is required is to look at the graph and compare the two bars for each country! The question is more suited to a fourth grader than a college graduate, let alone a would-be teacher.

There are other numerous examples of the simplistic nature of the test. However, let's get back to the Massachusetts test that seems a bit more difficult than most.

In a section near and dear to my heart, the test has a lengthy passage on James Madison and the Constitution. Test-takers are asked to write a summary of what they have just read. Here is one response that has been published by the Massachusetts Department of Education (but not necessarily the most unnerving):

"James Madison was the Father of the Constitution. But he was no good at taking notes. He wrote a lot of notes on the debats. But also left some stuff out. What we will never know. In the convention, delegats had to debat and compermise. 42 people did not sign and thanks to James Madison we will never know, why?"

(A precise re-creation of the response. Image )

And while the Massachusetts Teachers Association fights to prevent testing of current teachers, there are citizens who have thought to help out with the teacher shortage in their towns by teaching. Some of these people have been highly sought after professionals, members of honor societies (such as the Phi Beta Kappa and Tau Beta Pi), award-winning students when in school and apparently well versed academically. Yet upon filling out an application to teach they are told, "Sorry, you don't have an education degree." It seems incredible that a community routinely hiring marginal people academically as its teachers would turn down someone with those credentials. Yet organizations like the MTA and NEA have pushed to create the legal barriers that prevent the best and brightest of our citizens (who wish to) from teaching.

With that comes the first recommendation.

Stop the monopoly that prevents those without an education degree from teaching. Stop the Education Establishment's fierce guarding of its own turf.

The Education Establishment has the unknowing public and beholden politicans as allies in a cabal that the Federal Trade Commission would call restraint of trade in any other situation.



[This message has been edited by Panther (edited July 16, 2001).]
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An short indictment of the education establishment.

Post by doubleouch »

This is all very interesting. I am an educator and I can tell you I have never heard of the education establishment. I have never been contacted by them nor do I get any direction from them. I love these quasi conspiricy theories. There is no organized movement in education. In truth, educational theory and practice is all over the board. As for american students performing lower on tests than most european and asian students, what we have found is that when general knowledge is tested american students do poorly, but, when we ask students to apply that knowledge to a task, american students kick butt. If you want any validation of how good our education system is, look at industry. We have the best scientists, computer programers, money experts, etc. in the world, bar none. As for this self esteem nonsence I keep hearing, I, nor any of my collegues have never heard of it. The whole idea that there is something terribly wrong with our schools that needs fixing is a bad philisophical stance anyway. A much better stance is school renewal, which says "how can we make our practice better". School renewal is always looking for ways to make education better and more effective for our kids. It doesn't believe there is a magic fix that will once and for all fix the broken schools.As for blaming the teachers, that is an easy way out. How many of you have been in a school latley? You would be shocked at the dedication and professionalism of my collegues. There are a few bad apples, but not many. It's funny, teaching and fighting are 2 things people think they know everything about!
Allen M.

An short indictment of the education establishment.

Post by Allen M. »

I'm not arguing, only posting an opinion of what I saw in the public school system. I had a GOOD education growing up and that's what I gauged what my kids were getting.

I tutored my children in on what I considered missing from their public school education -- just the basic three "R"s, nothing fancy and nothing overbearing -- and never bellyached abut it. Public school systems seem to have abolished memorizing multiplication tables, don't stress or even care about word problems, word spelling has degraded to 5th grade level at higher levels, etc. ONE thing that I noticed which was plus, was the public elementary schools across the US that my children attended all gave a summer required reading program. [What? Up to the parents to insure the program is being followed during the SUMMER?]

I did it right.

I spent the time with my kids through all their excuses and crying and tantrums and everything else they pull to not learn.

You have to take the responsibility of rearing your own children because no one is going to take that responsibility for you. If you don't care enough about your own children to fill in the blank spaces then guess what -- no one else does either.

Forget about fighting city hall. Roll your shirtsleeves up and just by asking them to open their books for a lousy hour or half hour a night and read to you or ask them to pick one or two math problems and you pick one too on what they did today is all they need, and is all you need to do your part as a parent.

Don't have time? Make time!



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An short indictment of the education establishment.

Post by Panther »

I was going to continue, but have gotten busy and needed to leave this deep topic for a time. Before I do continue, I will thank everyone who's contributed. And I will respond to some things.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by doubleouch:

This is all very interesting. I am an educator and I can tell you I have never heard of the education establishment. I have never been contacted by them nor do I get any direction from them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you obtain a degree in "education"?
Are you a member of a local or national teacher's union?
Do you listen to the directions of a Principal, Superintendent, or Union leader?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I love these quasi conspiricy theories.
When there isn't a valid counter-argument, it is always good to paint the opposition as somehow being "kooks".

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
There is no organized movement in education. In truth, educational theory and practice is all over the board.
Really? Really?

It is interesting to note that one can talk with the lowliest teacher from the most rural school in east-podunk, nowhere OR a teacher from a school situated in the middle of any urban decaying metropolitan area across this nation AND get the same exact diatribe and litany. Hmmmm...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
As for american students performing lower on tests than most european and asian students, what we have found is that when general knowledge is tested american students do poorly, but, when we ask students to apply that knowledge to a task, american students kick butt.
Please tell us the results and give cites. (I have.) We're interested in seeing this "butt kicking" of international students.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
If you want any validation of how good our education system is, look at industry. We have the best scientists, computer programers, money experts, etc. in the world, bar none.
This has already been discussed.

I refer you to my second post... no wait... I'll make it easy:

<blockquote>American technology runs heavily on the skills of foreign students who regularly beat us in world competitions.

Overall, some 45% of the 13,000 Ph.D.'s in the hard sciences - physics, computer science, mathematics, chemistry, and engineering - are awarded each year to non-Americans, what the government calls "non-resident Aliens." In the most vital high-tech fields, computer sciences and engineering, the number of foreign students is even higher, around 50%. Apparently, failure to properly educate our own has forced us to rely on the outside world for technical expertise. </blockquote>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
As for this self esteem nonsence I keep hearing, I, nor any of my collegues have never heard of it.
Interesting. Those "psychology" classes are required as part of getting a degree in education. If this was just "made up", it is amazing that so many people know exactly what I'm referring to, but you deny it exists.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
The whole idea that there is something terribly wrong with our schools that needs fixing is a bad philisophical stance anyway.
I would argue that this statement is (and has been shown to be) demonstrably incorrect.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
A much better stance is school renewal, which says "how can we make our practice better". School renewal is always looking for ways to make education better and more effective for our kids. It doesn't believe there is a magic fix that will once and for all fix the broken schools.
Great... a brandy-new buzz-word. Part of the issue is that we've listened to (and funded) every new fad, fix or buzz-phrase that has been throw at us by the Education Establishment. I also find it interesting that in one sentence you admonish that it is a "bad philosophical stance" to think there is anything wrong with our schools and then you discuss "looking for ways to make education better and more effective". If everything is fine, then why change what is already effective. The fact is that what was effective was changed. And now the results are bearing the spoiled fruit.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
As for blaming the teachers, that is an easy way out.
I don't blame it all on teachers. I've even pointed that out. However, there is enough blame to go around and thus far, this tread has discussed the situation within the Education Establishment. However, since you've obviously missed some parts of the thread, from a previous post:

<blockquote>"Parents, the PTAs, and elected school board officials have all abdicated their powers to the hired help, the members of the Education Establishment."

and

"State legislators, who have the ultimate power over public education, are generally ignorant about the subject, cowed by educators, and therefore neglect their duty to parents and teachers."</blockquote>


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
How many of you have been in a school latley?
Here we go again... Image

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
You would be shocked at the dedication and professionalism of my collegues.
Please re-read the thread. Most specifically where I've stated (multiple times) that:

<blockquote>"I would love it if, as a society, we would take the millions of dollars that go to professional athletes and give that money to teachers."

and

"... teachers should be paid and treated as the valued professionals that they are and everything should be done to encourage and obtain the best teaching talent possible for the future of our nation."

and

"Teachers should be reasonably compensated for the important job we ask of them..."</blockquote>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
There are a few bad apples, but not many. It's funny, teaching and fighting are 2 things people think they know everything about!
I haven't claimed to be an expert in either. I'm simply posting some observations and research. If you'd like to give counter research, that is not only fine, but welcomed. (Please give cites, because I no longer discuss issues with people who can't back up their information. Also, we will refrain from personal attacks and my discussions and points about this topic are not a personal attack on any individual.)
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An short indictment of the education establishment.

Post by LeeDarrow »

In reply to doubletouch's interesting post -

Just a few comments:

I do presentations for high school age students and at high schools and colleges all over the country on a regular basis, so I believe I have some input for this.

In my own experience with students, basics such as spelling, general math (and I'm not talking trig or calculus here) are sadly lacking. Grammar is almost nonexistant in certain groups and well developed in others.

Historical grasp, at least in the Chicago area is surprisingly well developed (how many high school students do you know that know about Clarence Darrow, the Monroe Doctrine or the free-silver issue? These kids all seem to!).

One of the main problems that I see is, as teachers are in a position for a long period of time, they tend to become more cynical, their expectations of the administration and their own careers falter and the fallout of this attitude shift lands on the students.

It's called burnout.

In many cases, it comes from dealing with an unsupportive administration system that forces them to focus on some pie-in-the-sky idealist notion of what a school should teach (political correctness being a big topic these days - don't slam the Japanese for attacking Pearl Harbor, or the Germans for sinking the Lusitania!) to pressure from the religious right (no sex education! no teaching about anything that doesn't fall into Christian doctrine - as WE see it, of course) and a lack of quality support materials, such as text books with words instead of pictures for high school students.

I also agree with Panther's comment about groupings by academic capability, but I would even take it one step further. I would do it not only by overall grade point average, but by subject, much like in colleges. That may be what he was getting at, but I'd just figured I'd put in my "me too!"

Fixing the school situation is not an easy problem. Salary issues, legislative issues, finance and finding issues, teacher accountability issues, administrational control issues all roll into this very dense nut to crack.

Content-based education is what I was brought up in, despite being a "new math" (that's "Chicago Math for you folks outside Illinois) victim, content-based education is what has allowed me to get to where I am today - a successful performer (I work for Sandals Resorts in the Caribbean, Medieval Times in Schaumburg, and a bunch of other major firms including MacDonalds, Kraft Foods, Siemans, etc) and a successful business man (Sales Manager for Computer Innovations, Inc.).

A return to content-based education might be a good first step. I could also be dead wrong. But I doubt it.

While I will probably catch some flack for the comment about the religious right above, I stand by my statements. Students need to learn - not just concepts but facts. Without the firm basis in general information, the concepts being taught are not as meaningful.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
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An short indictment of the education establishment.

Post by doubleouch »

I won't argue any more theory with you, but I will say that goals 2000 came from politicians, not educators. And as always they demand change without funding it. One of the biggest problems with any type of school reform, and the biggest reason that it seems to fail, is that the same 3 mistakes are made over and over.
1. They don't fund the change properly
2. They always underestimate the complexity of the problem.
3. They never give enough time for the change to work.

In my state, most of the educational reform policies are set by the state legislature, not the education system. We are trying hard to take the mandates they give us and make sound educational policy out of them. Believe it or not every educator I know is very concerned with giving the best education to our kids that they possibly can. the idea of a bunch of inadequate teacher out there sitting on our a$$e$ collecting our checks is a false notion. As for the myth of districts wasting or spending most of their money on administration, I can say that my district spends less than 10 percent of our budget on administrative costs, and I don't think that is very unusual.
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An short indictment of the education establishment.

Post by Panther »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by doubleouch:
I won't argue any more theory with you, but I will say that goals 2000 came from politicians, not educators. And as always they demand change without funding it. One of the biggest problems with any type of school reform, and the biggest reason that it seems to fail, is that the same 3 mistakes are made over and over.
1. They don't fund the change properly
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

(emphasis mine)
As previously posted:

<blockquote>In 1960, Americans spent $375 a year to educate each public school pupil; $816 in 1970; $6146 in1996; and over $7000 per pupil in the 1999-2000 school year!

In inflation adjusted dollars, we are now spending two to three times more per child than in 1960, when performance was generally higher.</blockquote>

I'm sorry, I just don't see the "lack of funding" the Education Establishment keeps screaming about.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
3. They never give enough time for the change to work.
How long is "enough time"? 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35 years that things have been gradually (and sometimes, not-so-gradually going down-hill haven't been enough to see if the new, improved, self-esteem building way is working? Image
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An short indictment of the education establishment.

Post by Yosselle »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by doubleouch:

1. They don't fund the change properly
2. They always underestimate the complexity of the problem.
3. They never give enough time for the change to work.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought this thread was about education, not software project managment Image

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An short indictment of the education establishment.

Post by LeeDarrow »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panther:
How long is "enough time"? 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35 years that things have been gradually (and sometimes, not-so-gradually going down-hill haven't been enough to see if the new, improved, self-esteem building way is working? Image

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One problem, Panther-Sensei, IMHO, is that the changes are never allowed to become FULLY IMPLIMENTED before another set of changes are mandated by politicians who have no idea whatsoever about education (for the most part - there are some who actually do their homework, but not many).

Also, many of the changes mandated are directly contradictory of and counter productive in relation to the prior set(s) of changes made.

Witness the so-called "Chicago Math" or New Math (made popular by Tom Leher in the song New Math). This form of math was designed to allow a student to understand the underlying principles of HOW math works. In the earlier middle school years (5-6-7 grade), the process was considered more important than accuracy. A fallacy we now know, but preliminary studies with that method showed great promise.

Right after enduring 2 years of the teacher going to class the night before so she could learn (unlearn old skills in favor of the politically mandated "solution") what she was to teach the next day, we switched back to "old math" and a lot of students fell by the wayside.

Why? Because the two teaching methods were almost diametrically opposed! This happens in Math, Science, Language Arts, Social Sciences and virtually everywhere else.

As to the average $7K/yr spent per student - let's take a little closer look at HOW that money was spent. If you are using Department of Education stats, they include teacher salaries, administration salaries, school nurse salaries, janitorial service costs, heating, air conditioning (if any), transportation costs, equipment, including gym stuff, and books.

Now, if we break down this number, which is meaningless to a great extent anyway because these numbers are no where near even across the educational system, you can see that a significant portion of this money seems to be going to stuff that does not directly impact the student in the classroom all that directly. Also, this does not take into account the tremendous explosion in information available today as compared to even ten years ago. If your numbers have been adjusted for in classroom amounts only, I would have to question your source.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
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An short indictment of the education establishment.

Post by LeeDarrow »

Additional comments -

Panther-Sensei, as far as student productivity goes, I am afraid you may be comparing apples to roman numerals here with regards to 1960's students scoring higher than their current counterparts.

Consider - when I was in high school, in the late 60's, trigonometry was a college level only class and you were only allowed to take it with a dean's approval. I went to Oak Park (IL) High, which at the time was rated the number 3 high school in the nation academically speaking.

Now, trig is REQUIRED to graduate from high school in many schools.

The bar is considerably higher.

In high school I was fortunate to have had a computing course and was among the first batch of students nationally to get one in high school (1967). Now, students are required to take at least two CompSci courses to graduate (at least in my old school system).

The bar is higher.

In high school calculus was something that you either went to the dentist to have removed from your teeth or a class that was taught for no credit after school for the brainacs.

Now it is heading for required course status.

The bar is considerably higher.

Yes, we are having trouble keeping up with other countries in educational excellence, but where do people flock for a quality education? The good old US of A. Why? We have the tools, we have the teachers and we have the ability to adapt (somewhat) to students from outside our own culture.

Try that anywhere else in the world. You won't get the same quality, you won't get the same breaks (language assistance, tutoring, etc) that you'd get here as an exchange or immigrant student.

Why? Because we are a nation OF immigrants. We all (except for the Native Americans and they are treated like second class citizens - would YOU carry a BIA card? - I wouldn't!) come from somewhere else!

So, several things are happening out there that are damaging to this report, the big one is that the bar has been moved significantly further up the tee. Another is that we ignore the issues of basics (as stated in an earlier post) to some extent, making it more difficult to keep up with other countries.

Also, how are the competitors selected for these academic tournaments? I am willing to bet that, in a more random selection (with BOTH sides playing it that way - and moderated to insure that) we would probably do a bit better.

Yes, a back to basics approach is needed in certain areas, but we also have to understand that the student of today is studying a wide variety of things that didn't even EXIST ten years ago and a wider variety of topics that were college grade material only fifteen years ago. Think about it - could any of US oldsters handled algebra in 5th grade?

That's where it's being taught these days.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
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An short indictment of the education establishment.

Post by Panther »

Good points Lee.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeeDarrow:

Why? Because the two teaching methods were almost diametrically opposed! This happens in Math, Science, Language Arts, Social Sciences and virtually everywhere else.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't want you to be switching back and forth... I don't believe in all the new "touchy-feely" learning methods. Go back to teaching basics.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
As to the average $7K/yr spent per student - let's take a little closer look at HOW that money was spent. If you are using Department of Education stats, they include teacher salaries, administration salaries, school nurse salaries, janitorial service costs, heating, air conditioning (if any), transportation costs, equipment, including gym stuff, and books.
All those things were being paid for 20-40 years ago as well. However, I would argue that the administrative costs have skyrocketed out of proportion to the classroom expenses. Also, the transportation and equipment costs need to be seriously looked at to see if they are really helping to give our children a better education.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
...you can see that a significant portion of this money seems to be going to stuff that does not directly impact the student in the classroom all that directly.
Never disputed this. In fact, I pointed out the problem in a previous post.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Also, this does not take into account the tremendous explosion in information available today as compared to even ten years ago.
I disagree with where this assertion is heading. I'll respond further when responding to your other post.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
If your numbers have been adjusted for in classroom amounts only, I would have to question your source.
No they aren't adjusted... and neither were the numbers for 1960, 70, etc...
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An short indictment of the education establishment.

Post by Panther »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeeDarrow:

as far as student productivity goes, I am afraid you may be comparing apples to roman numerals here with regards to 1960's students scoring higher than their current counterparts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All we have to look at are the SAT scores. You know, the ones which were dumbed down by 100 points (each part) in 1994 to compensate for ever dropping scores... Image The questions are still pretty much the same, but in the later years the majority of kids weren't doing as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Consider - when I was in high school, in the late 60's, trigonometry was a college level only class and you were only allowed to take it with a dean's approval. I went to Oak Park (IL) High, which at the time was rated the number 3 high school in the nation academically speaking.

Now, trig is REQUIRED to graduate from high school in many schools.

The bar is considerably higher.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well... In east-nowhere NC, in the early 70s trig was one of the requirements.

I don't see that as being much higher. One could still get a decent SAT score without exhaustive knowledge of advanced math.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In high school I was fortunate to have had a computing course and was among the first batch of students nationally to get one in high school (1967). Now, students are required to take at least two CompSci courses to graduate (at least in my old school system).

The bar is higher.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You were lucky... perhaps. I don't have the reference handy, but I will find it... However, from memory, there is a high-school text that specifically states that since computers are or will be doing much of this computational work, it isn't needed for students to learn the math!

Perhaps this is a big part of the problem. We're teaching kids how to move a mouse around, and graduating them without the fundamental ability to count change! I ran into this just the other night. The waitress (late teens, early twentys, working to make money for college) seemed fairly intelligent, but when it came time for her to make change, she seemed like a deer in the headlights. I told her off the top of my head what the change should be and she still was having a hard time. Sooooo, in a couple of minutes, I taught her the correct way to count and make change! She was smart enough. She could do it. But in all those years of school, NO ONE had taught her how! Image Sheesh...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In high school calculus was something that you either went to the dentist to have removed from your teeth or a class that was taught for no credit after school for the brainacs.

Now it is heading for required course status.

The bar is considerably higher.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wait a minute... If kids these days are learning trig and calc on a regular basis, one would expect lots of 800s on the SAT math scores. Wonder why the scores are still going down... Hmmmmmm... "This does not compute." Image

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Yes, we are having trouble keeping up with other countries in educational excellence, but where do people flock for a quality education? The good old US of A. Why? We have the tools, we have the teachers and we have the ability to adapt (somewhat) to students from outside our own culture.

Try that anywhere else in the world. You won't get the same quality, you won't get the same breaks (language assistance, tutoring, etc) that you'd get here as an exchange or immigrant student.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please re-read my second post in this thread. Specifically where I mention that we have the world's top technical institutions.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Why? Because we are a nation OF immigrants. We all (except for the Native Americans and they are treated like second class citizens - would YOU carry a BIA card? - I wouldn't!) come from somewhere else!
No... but I carry an AIM card. (Scottish-Cherokee-Europamerican-Heinz57-mutt)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
So, several things are happening out there that are damaging to this report, the big one is that the bar has been moved significantly further up the tee. Another is that we ignore the issues of basics (as stated in an earlier post) to some extent, making it more difficult to keep up with other countries.
Exactly! In a quest to raise the bar, we've ignored the basics! We agree! Without the basics, learning trig or calc is futile at best! Back to basics. Teach what is known to work. If a kid doesn't get the basics, keep with it. If a kid gets the basics very quickly, move them right on to the next level... and the next... and the next... and if they can handle it, teach them diff eqs! Or more! If they can't, keep working the basics.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Yes, a back to basics approach is needed in certain areas, but we also have to understand that the student of today is studying a wide variety of things that didn't even EXIST ten years ago and a wider variety of topics that were college grade material only fifteen years ago.
And that's not a part of the solution, it's part of the problem.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Think about it - could any of US oldsters handled algebra in 5th grade?
What's algebra? Image

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
That's where it's being taught these days.
And there's the problem... they're learning algebra in 5th grade without knowing their multiplication tables, fractions, etc. So when they get to those tests or contests, they can't figure out a simple averaging problem for lack of the basics. Perhaps they were to busy trying to fit and "X", "Y" and "Z" into the equation. Image
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