Islamic scholar expresses frustration

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Bill Glasheen
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Islamic scholar expresses frustration

Post by Bill Glasheen »

The following post was inserted in another thread by Akil Todd Harvey. I thought it more appropriate to leave it out of that one (since it was off topic) and put it in its own thread.

- The Moderator

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Greetings,
Since 9/11, a scholar of Islam finds himself in demand -- for the wrong reasons

BOSTON — I am an Islamic scholar, a university professor specializing in medieval Islamic mysticism and philosophy. My work used to be considered somewhat arcane. Now colleagues tell me I am in a "hot field." I can tell you it sometimes feels more like a "hot seat."
Since Sept. 11, I have been expected to move easily back and forth among academia, town meetings and think tanks. People now tend to conflate everything relating to Islam, Muslims and the Middle East reductively. I teach Islamic studies, so it is assumed I can comment (in neat sound bites) on terrorism, modern Islam and the war in Iraq.
Even before 9/11, students were curious about the differences between Islam and other religions, and some of their questions betrayed underlying prejudices. They wanted to know about the rigidity of Islamic law, human rights, gender inequality, Islamic proselytizing and the ill treatment of non-Muslims by Muslims. Now, the students' central concerns are Islamic terrorism, Islamic extremism, the global reach of groups like Al Qaeda, anti-intellectualism in Islam and whether Islam poses a threat.
Working through these issues is part of the educational process. Still, the task of overcoming the hostility that comes into the classroom is daunting. I look wistfully at colleagues who teach Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism and other religions. Do they have to spend class time humanizing their traditions or proving their rich histories? I doubt it.
Today, scholars of Islam struggle to come up with a pedagogical response to global events, and to address the overwhelmingly negative perceptions students bring to learning about Islamic traditions. Clearly there is a need for classes dealing with contemporary issues. But the problem for scholars not trained in modern issues is that they're being asked to address subjects far outside their specialties.
I and many of my colleagues feel pressure to change our research. If our work does not contribute to the war on terrorism, then we are seen as unpatriotic. I never thought that global affairs would politicize my field like this.
The way one must teach about Islam today is not the way we were prepared by graduate schools to teach. Students in classes are demanding that course content be relevant to their lives. As one student asked me: "Is this piece of information at all useful in catching Osama bin Laden?" In an introductory course I teach, students read primary documents from theological debates between Sunnis and Shiites in the 11th century. A student recently asked whether "the Shiites used terrorism to defend their beliefs." I don't think a Christian scholar would be asked, say, whether Martin Luther used terrorism to defend the 95 theses he posted on the church door. But where Islam is concerned, violence is assumed.
On some level, I can understand my students' obsession with trying to understand this new world. My colleagues and I have been deeply affected by global affairs. Since 9/11, I have seen my country adopt Islamophobia without hesitation. Things like the Patriot Act, the forthcoming Patriot Act II, new Citizenship and Immigration Services registration regulations, government surveillance of Arab and Muslim American communities and infiltration of places of worship have directly affected U.S. Muslims. I have listened as Christian evangelical leaders demonized Islam, calling the prophet Muhammad a pedophile.
Vigilance against foreign terrorists was absolutely a correct response for the U.S. But the kind of intense scrutiny all Muslims have been subjected to goes far beyond ordinary caution. It leads to a deep feeling of insecurity. We all know how easily our lives can be disrupted. No matter that we are loyal citizens of this country: We bear the burden of overseas politics and fanatics.
Even bookstores, every academic's sanctuary, have become reminders of how the world has changed. The Islam section used to be filled with books of interest to scholars: Now it should be renamed the "jihad and terrorism" section. There are more books than ever on Islam, but they are written by nonexperts and many carry offensive titles like "Sword of Islam: Muslim Extremism From the Arab Conquests to the Attack on America," or "A Fury for God: The Islamist Attack on America." These books perpetuate a one-dimensional picture of fundamentalist Islam as being the predominant practice in the Muslim world. Good luck trying to find scholarly works on art, architecture, poetry, philosophy, fashion, ethics and literature of the Arab and Muslim worlds. They exist but are no longer carried.
One positive of all this, I suppose, is that I'm invited to speak more frequently. But it's somewhat absurd that I — a medievalist — am asked to explain the ideological interconnections between contemporary Wahhabism, jihad organizations and Al Qaeda. In the last few months I've been interviewed or asked to speak on the scandals of Pakistan's nuclear program, Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani's clerical status, Iranian reformers, the banning of the veil in French public schools, the Kashmiri dispute between India and Pakistan and Muslim perceptions of Saddam Hussein's capture.
I suppose I should be happy that at least my audiences are always alert and engaged. Global events have attracted ordinary people who had no interest in Islam. And I take the opportunity to put events into historical context, because as much as contemporary issues are seen as new phenomena, they aren't. To understand them, it is critical to understand what came before.
Until Sept. 11, I never saw myself as all that different from other Americans. Was I deceiving myself? It certainly felt that way recently coming back from a conference in Canada. I was interrogated, fingerprinted, photographed and humiliated. I could no longer be seen as just another academic attending an arcane conference: I was the other, a stranger and a potential terrorist.
These experiences have transformed me and redefined my identity and my place in academia and society. It is one thing to experience alienation; it is another to have it forced upon you in order to make the majority feel more secure. I didn't go into Islamic studies expecting it to require me to constantly defend my own humanity — and that of my religion.
By Qamar-ul Huda, Qamar-ul Huda is an assistant professor of Islamic studies and comparative theology at Boston College. He is the author of "Striving for Divine Union: Spiritual Exercises for Suhraward{imacronl} Sufis

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/com ... t-opinions

Akil
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Akil

Good article. However, this guy strikes me as being a bit of a whiner....
I am an Islamic scholar, a university professor specializing in medieval Islamic mysticism and philosophy. My work used to be considered somewhat arcane. Now colleagues tell me I am in a "hot field." I can tell you it sometimes feels more like a "hot seat."
You should be so lucky. Most of what is taught in Universities these days gets little attention.
I teach Islamic studies, so it is assumed I can comment (in neat sound bites) on terrorism, modern Islam and the war in Iraq.
Whom else would you rather have speak on these subjects?
Clearly there is a need for classes dealing with contemporary issues. But the problem for scholars not trained in modern issues is that they're being asked to address subjects far outside their specialties.
Why aren't scholars of medieval Islamic mysticism and philosophy not expected to understand and comment on the contemporary relevance of their work?
Students in classes are demanding that course content be relevant to their lives.
And it's up to you to MAKE it relevant to their lives. Or are you satisfied with being involved in material that's irrelevant?

And if you expect students only to ask perfect questions, you're asking a lot. Hey, at least they're awake, in class, and have your attention!
Vigilance against foreign terrorists was absolutely a correct response for the U.S. But the kind of intense scrutiny all Muslims have been subjected to goes far beyond ordinary caution. It leads to a deep feeling of insecurity. We all know how easily our lives can be disrupted. No matter that we are loyal citizens of this country: We bear the burden of overseas politics and fanatics.
Indeed. Ask the Japanese what it was like to live in this country in the 1940s. I'm not saying it's right, but we have come a long way.

Some feel peace-loving members of Islam should be more outspoken. Hey, you don't see Fallwell or Robertson getting a pass in this country.

But I understand this view. Unfortunately it's human nature.
There are more books than ever on Islam, but they are written by nonexperts...
Can you say "opportunity?" Unfortunately for you, by the time you figure out the potential, the window will likely be shut or flooded.
I suppose I should be happy that at least my audiences are always alert and engaged. Global events have attracted ordinary people who had no interest in Islam. And I take the opportunity to put events into historical context, because as much as contemporary issues are seen as new phenomena, they aren't. To understand them, it is critical to understand what came before.
Precisely.

- Bill
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

quote:
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I teach Islamic studies, so it is assumed I can comment (in neat sound bites) on terrorism, modern Islam and the war in Iraq.
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Whom else would you rather have speak on these subjects?

Bill,
I would have thought that a terrorist would be able to speak more about terrorism, and a soldier more about the war in Iraq, than a teacher of Islamic studies. I mean you wouldn't ask a Catholic priest for his comments about Terrorism ( the IRA were catholics :roll: ) ..the only thing this guy feels qualified to talk about is his religion..heck he probably doesn't even own a gun :roll:
I think that this guy is making the point that Islam is being portrayed as the badguy, and that thru the way this is being presented a lot of very seperate unrelated things are brought together i.e.
Islam, Terrorism and the war in Iraq.
( May as well throw in 9/11 and WMD while your at it)
This is all lies by politicians to create an enemy with a face.
I feel sorry for the people stupid enough to belief it :wink:
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

jorvik

Point well taken. I agree with your comments.

I guess what I was trying to say is that it's a glass half empty vs. half full thing. Most folks only dream about being in a position where their point of view matters. And then when one is thrust in the spotlight, one isn't always happy to be there. Granted that this attention is a bit different than making a great discovery and having people interested in it per se.

This attention can be thought of as a wonderful opportunity. There's a local political scientist, Professor Larry Sabato of U.Va., that always seems to get on T.V. during election time, and quoted in the news whenever there are discussions about political races. This attention affords him the opportunity to secure his academic position and sell more books that he writes.

"History" is being written here by those that wish to see it their own way. Who can change this? Food for thought.

- Bill
Rick Wilson

Post by Rick Wilson »

The gentleman’s sentiment may be somewhat justified and certainly his experiences crossing the border highlight the issues facing North America.

However, I must side with Bill on this one. Here is a golden opportunity for a knowledgeable person to properly place in perspective Islam.

Yes, what has happened to Islam through the fundamentalist interpretations (misinterpretations) has led to terrorism. But now he has an opportunity to reveal what Islam is meant to be.

He should take every opportunity to talk and explain. He should take every opportunity to talk to those with concerns about terrorism and tell them what Islam truly stands for.

If he is unsure of the transition then I think he should research it himself. Perhaps a book would then be written by someone more knowledgeable. :wink:

It is a shame that such concerns exist. It is a shame that terrorism exist. It is a shame that these things lead to bigotry and prejudice. But here we are, so while we lament the reasons for him being in a hot field, he should take advantage of it to educate as many people as he can.
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Rick
I feel sorry for this guy coz there are different shades of Islam, just as there are different shades of any religion :cry: ...this guy is into Sufi's which are a lot like Zen Buddhists and that is a long way away from some of the other groups..people drop terms like " Fundamentalist" as though it's a bad word, just means core beliefs, nothing dirty or nasty in that same as " Jihad" means a war in furtherance of Islam, to benefit Islam..lot of daft nutters take this term and use it wrongly..and then they get called " Fundamentalists" and the whole religion becomes Fundamently evil. This is wrong and stupid :evil: but because people do not take the time to study religion they get confused...and politicians aid in this confusion..for the furtherance of their worldly ambitions.
Take other religions
Buddhism
Zen is nothing, came from nowhere....Buddhism is 5,000 years old the purist traditions are in East Asia Thailand, Burma etc...Zen came from Chan in China ( called Son in Korea) and it's a couple of hundred years old at most, yet how many people see this as the embodiement of buddhism?..same as Tibetan Buddhism imported from India in the 13th Century ( Tibetan written language is sanskrit :lol: ) ..not a great deal of tradition there.
look at Christianity
The Catholics purged just about anything that didn't conform to their ltd beliefs :cry: ..and you have all sorts of fancifull things Mary Mother of God invented in about the 14th Century, confessions ( what is that about??....we are all equal in God's eyes)...Virgin birth?? but Jesus had 4 brothers and at least 2 sisters??
Why do we swear on the Bible in Court when Jesus said " Simply say!...all else is born of evil....and a biggy my dad was a man and I am a man Jesus' dad was a God so why wasn't he a God ....and was his Mom a God as well......so why is there only one God I count three. 8)
....Bit of a rant I suppose :lol: ...but given what I've just said folks who are interested in Religion should be left alone and not included in discussions about politics they are seperate
To quote Jesus " Render unto God that which is God's Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's"
( End of Rant :wink: )
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Post by 2Green »

I do recall that after 9/11 there seemed to be an effort made in the media to educate the public about Islam.
I assumed that this as a deliberate campaign to prevent an "anti-Islamic" backlash. There were special documentaries on CNN, films on PBS, all manner of things like this.
However, the problem is that the attacks of 9/11 were done in the name of Islam by radicals, and so they (the radicals) themselves have caused the backlash effect.

I'm no expert, but I know that the concept of "conquering in the name of Islam" (jihad) is a core concept of Islam; of course no rational person is going to take that to mean "kill 3000 innocent people" .
But the concepts are close enough in meaning to make people nervous and I think this is where the problem originates.

Western religions were founded on peace and love (the result of Christian belief); where were those concepts when the Crusaders rode in and slaughtered innocent, bewildered and highly civilized Saracens?
Where was the forgiveness and compassion when the Inquisitors were burning people alive in the name of Christ?
Nice way to introduce your religion, do you think?
So I place the attackers of 9/11 in the same camp: not representative of Islam, just deluded zealots who have placed a huge blot on the very name they acted in honor of.

The old paradox: "war in the name of God."

I hope this view has not insulted anyone or their beliefs; I take this seriously. I just wanted to express my view as I see it, without slamming anyone else's.

NM
cxt
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Post by cxt »

2Green

You make several very good points.

But I have to disagree when you compare acts which took place in the distant past to acts commited in the present.

Christians have not burned people at the stake or went on Crusade in over 400 years.

And if your going to use use historical "bad acts" then please remember that it was the "highly civilized Saracens" that ruthlessly invaded the West well before any of our Crusades.

It was the "highly civilized Saracern" who brutally invaded and "slaughtered innocent, bewildered" people in the Christian Kingdoms of what is now Spain.

Setting up a 100's or so years worth of foregin rule. Which required a Crusade to free Spain.

See, no nation has clean enough hands to go around pointing fingers over whom has done what "bad" in history.

As far as I am concerned nobody has the moral high ground.

Just my opinion.
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Post by Akil Todd Harvey »

Bill,

Tis far better to have your post be moved, than to be removed, so while I may not agree that this post is distant in content to the original thread it was posted in, I support you 110% in putting it here.
Christians have not burned people at the stake or went on Crusade in over 400 years.
More recent historical examples of Christian misbehavior might be the present sex scandal among the church. It would seem unfair to judge all priests or all Christians according to the actions of a few (even if they were supported by the actions of a few bishops), but perhaps I am wrong.
Setting up a 100's or years worth of foreign rule. That required a Crusade to free Spain.
And what niceties did the Crusaders who freed Spain do after reconquering Spain? What did they call this wonderful time in history? I think it was called the Spanish inquisition......
The Spanish Inquisition was one of the most deadly inquisitions in history.

The Spanish Inquisition was used for both political and religious reasons. Spain is a nation-state that was born out of religious struggle between numerous different belief systems including Catholicism, Islam, Protestantism and Judaism. Following the Crusades and the Reconquest of Spain by the Christian Spaniards the leaders of Spain needed a way to unify the country into a strong nation. Ferdinand and Isabella chose Catholicism to unite Spain and in 1478 asked permission of the pope to begin the Spanish Inquisition to purify the people of Spain. They began by driving out Jews, Protestants and other non-believers.
Note: It does not say anything about driving out the Muslims (they are not even referred to as the moors).

We can discuss the methods that these Christians used to drive out the Jews & Muslims after we discuss the Fact that the Jews had lived in Muslim Spain for hundreds of years without having been molested. In fact, it could be argued that Jews of that time were far safer under Muslim rule than under Christian rule, but that fact will be conveniently forgotten and glossed over as that does not fit into our pre-concieved notions of militant and fundamentalist Islam.

http://campus.northpark.edu/history/Web ... Inqui.html
The Jewish people are often associated with wealth and with being a plague to the society to which they belong. Fourteenth-century Spain was no different. In the city of Seville, there was an archdeacon named Martinez who continually tried to incite the people to purge themselves of the "dirty" Jewish citizens. After several reproaches by the Spanish Cardinal and the Pope, Martinez finally succeeded. On Ash Wednesday (March 15,1391), Martinez incited his congregation to riot. The crowd moved en masse towards the Juderia (Jewish quarter). Some of the participants were captured by the police and flogged or beaten, but that was not enough to stop the mob. Although they did not succeed that day to destroy the Jews, the feelings that Martinez had evoked lay simmering until June 6th when the mob sacked the Juderia of Seville. It is believed that the victims numbered in the hundreds, if not thousands (C. Roth, The Spanish Inquisition, 1964). After that episode and a few sporadic others, the Jews thought themselves to be free of those problems, but this was not to be the case.
http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/64.htm

Interestingly, again, although Spain was supposed to have been conquered by Muslims, and although an important aspect of the Inquisition was certainly to eliminate any vestiges of Islam in Spain, Islam and Muslims are not mentioned here, either. Not surprising considering it is a Christian Bible web site, but I would have hoped for something a bit more historically accurate.
But to return to the chronological consideration, with a bit of geography thrown in for good measure. In 1478, at the moment the Inquisition was set up, the Christians of the Iberian peninsula had been engaged in a crusade for nearly seven hundred years. The fighting had not been constant, to be sure - it took our enlightened epoch to develop the fine art of total war - but ever since the eighth century, when the Arab Muslims had stormed across the straits of Gibraltar from Africa and with fire and sword had subjugated the peninsula as far north as the Ebro River, the native resistance to their occupation had been constant. And, by fits and starts, with frequent intervals of inactivity, resistance had gradually evolved into counter-attack, into a growing determination to win back what had been lost to the alien invaders. Little by little this relentless process of reconquest - la reconquista -drove the descendants of those invaders, the Moors, ever farther into the south until, in 1478, they had left to them only a small enclave around the city of Granada. The end of the crusade was in sight.
http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals ... icle2.html

Article supporting CXT's assertion that the Muslims had captured Spain and the Spanish had attempted for a long time to reconquer. Also note that while it is not ok for Muslim Africans to conquer southern Europe, It is entirely compatible for Southern Europe to conquer Northern Africa for as long as it wants, as long as it is justified by their just being nicer people (they are obviously more civilized, right?).

http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals ... icle2.html
This one is important because it was the first article I found that actually bothers to mention the Muslims (I suppose it is better to be ignored than to be insulted, right?).

It would be difficult to exaggerate how profound an impact this extraordinarily long and all-consuming cruzado had upon the formation of Spanish public policy. Comparisons are impossible to draw, because no other Christian people had experienced anything even remotely similar. As suggested above, a Europe-wide consensus had indeed developed during the Middle Ages that religious dissidents could not be tolerated if true religion and harmonious society were to endure. Add to this the universal conviction that heretics adhered to their objectionable opinions not out of conscience but out of bad will, and it comes as no surprise that increasingly stringent laws were enacted throughout Christendom against those who refused to conform. Since such a refusal was judged the worst possible crime, the ultimate penalty for it everywhere was the worst form of capital punishment imaginable, burning at the stake. Though this ferocious sentence was carried out relatively rarely, the prospect of it did act as a deterrent and did induce all except the most stout-hearted to disavow their heterodoxies once brought to light by a judicial process. Still, the troublesome possibility remained that those who had formally recanted might have done so out of fear rather than conversion of mind, and that they continued to practice their subversive heresies in secret, waiting for a more propitious day.

In the Iberia of the reconquista a scenario of this kind presented a danger profoundly more serious than elsewhere. As the Christians slowly reestablished their hegemony over the peninsula - expressed in the two distinct political entities, Portugal and Spain - the potential antagonists of religious uniformity they were determined to impose were not indigenous eccentrics, as was the case in other European countries (bear in mind that the Protestant Reformation was at this moment still forty years in the future), but a conquered population linked by ties of race and religion to the Muslims living in the principalities of North Africa, which at Gibraltar lay only sixteen watery miles away. Even more ominous from the Spanish point of view was the fact that these so-called barbary states - the modern nations of Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia - formed part of a vast imperial system established by the Muslim Turks, a system as powerful and menacing to western Europe as the Soviet bloc was conceived to be in our day. As the reconquista proceeded, therefore, and especially after Granada and the last remnant of Spanish Islam fell to the armies of Ferdinand and Isabella in 1492, policy-makers had to decide how to treat the Moors and the relatively small but influential Jewish community which, in marked contrast to what our century has witnessed, had flourished within a larger Islamic society. The Christian victors, fearful of Muslim sympathizers in their midst, offered no compromise: Moors and Jews had to accept baptism or face expulsion from the country now defined as entirely Catholic.

http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals ... icle2.html

Only one question here.........Why do they say Islam was spread by the sword when the most notorious historical period of spreading religion by the sword was carried out by the Christians?

http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals ... icle2.html
Predictably, however, the stark choice between conformity and exile invited pretense and hypocrisy on the part of those dragooned into a faith not of their own choosing. The Jews and Moors who conformed rather than depart the land in which they and their ancestors had lived for hundreds of years did so with varying measures of reluctance, merging often into downright dissimulation. And this is precisely why the Inquisition was created by the Spanish monarchs: as the etymology of the word implies, the first task of this new judicial body was inquiry, specifically inquiry into the authenticity of the conversion of the Moors and Jews who had come under the sway of those monarchs.

.....Thus the early savagery of the Spanish Inquisition contributes another chapter to the sad history of anti-Semitism, motivated on this occasion, however, more by politico-religious expediency than by racial hatred........
But we have no good word/name describing those who hate Islam or Muslims as we do with Jews and Judaism. Must be proof that no on e hates Islam, right?

More to come.......Have a nice week folks........

Akil[/u][/b]
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cxt
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Post by cxt »

Akil

Thanks for proving my point that nobody has the high moral ground here.

Again, please actually read what you, yourself actually write prior to posting it.

Nothing you posted has any effect on that the fact that Islamic "crusaders" invaded the West prior to any of our own Crusades.

Nothing you posted has any bearing on the ruthless invasion of Christian Spain by Islamic warriors.

Or the persucution of Christians by their Muslium overlords.

These are historical facts that upset your usual little knee jerk "the west is bad" ranting.

Which if I may say again--nobody has the historical moral high ground.

But if folks are going to bring up the Crusades it should be pointed out that the West was invaded first--by Musliums intent on conquest.

Your argument that Jews were better off in Muslium Spain than in Christian nations is a joke.

A-Again what may or may not have occured 400 years ago has no bearing on todays actions.

Are jews better off today--don't think so!! And if they are not--whats your point???

B-The de-facto arguement that jews were better off under Muslium rule DOES NOT justify the invasion of Spain.

Again, and again, and again what happened 400 years ago cannot be used to justify actions taken today.

The use of 400 year old events cannot be used to rationalize things that happen today.

Go back far enough and nobodies hands are clean enough to point fingers.

Christain or Muslium.
jorvik

Post by jorvik »

Let us not forget that the last crusade was against the " Cathars" in southern France, who were Christians ( although a bit different from the Christians that wiped them out :cry: )
I think the reason that I get upset with the term " Radical Islam" or " Islamic fundamentalism" is that it is an invented term coined by politicians to catagorise people to de- humanise them and make them more easily identifiable as enemies .when you look at how many unrelated arab countries or groups can be labeled this way. Links are attempted between Saddam and Bin Laden...and 9/11, but we are expected to forget that 9/11 was done by Saudis and that the Bush family are close friends of the Osamas.
Really what we are seeing is the development of a nice little conspiracy theory against anybody we want..we just have to label them. Look at Iran, they had a bloody war with Iraq, in which the U.S. supported Iraq ...so they are enemies of Iraq..but we can still call them " Radical Fundamentalists" and that gives us all the moral justification for attacking them if we want :roll:
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Post by cxt »

Jorvik


As opposed to the "nice little conspiracy theory" that as you put it "the Bush family are close friends of the Osamas"

Do you have any support for this contention? Any evidence? Any documentation?

And has been pointed out many times before--on the same topic--things change, nations that were once friends become bitter enemies.

Heck, we were all buddy, buddy with the Russians for a number of years. And look at how that turned out--50 years of a hot and cold war.

And we supported a number of "freedom fighters" in Afganistan. Mainly the Northern Alliance, in kicking out our bigger enemies the Russians.
Only to have them turn on us later.

Just because nations are friends/enemies right now is no indication of what they may be in the future.

Things change dude.
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Post by Akil Todd Harvey »

I want to stay within the rulez and still address the concerns of my friend, CXT (whoever you are????!?!?!??!)
Thanks for proving my point that nobody has the high moral ground here.
I never thought that that was your point, I thought you were blaming the Muslims for invading Europe. Does that mean we give the Crusaders a "pass"?

The crusades were not over 400 years ago, they lasted for as long as two hundred years. So, feel free to check your facts.

A more recent inquisition our readers may be familiar with were the McCarthy Senate hearings which were far less brutal, but far more recent. That occurred less than fifty years ago, so perhaps it will ring as a bit more contemporary.

If we are ever to achieve peace in the middle east, we might have to think outside of the box (today's conflict) and envision a society in which Jews and Muslims live in peace, again, as they have more than once in the past.
These are historical facts that upset your usual little knee jerk "the west is bad" ranting.
RULE #1: Discuss issues, and not personalities.
Again, I feel maligned as I am not anti-West. A nuanced posting placed with considerable supporting quotes from three distinct web sites deserves a more reasoned response than merely declaring it to be "usual little knee jerk "the west is bad" ranting". That my friend, does not even qualify as quality discourse, much less a viable dialogue in which we can actually hope to benefit from. That could be perceived to be deliberate misrepresentation, but let us not be too sensitive.

The issue, Thanks Jorvik,
I think that this guy is making the point that Islam is being portrayed as the badguy
The guy with the black hat (or in this case, the black turban).

And the corollary issue, is that Christianity/Judaism (Western Civilization) is being portrayed as the good guy (with the white hat).

Post 9/11, there were a number of excellent well produced programs on Islam on fox cable news (who bring you such journalistic stalwarts as the fair and balanced, Bill O'Reilly), but these were few and far in between and have become increasingly scarce the farther from 9/11 we have come.
Your argument that Jews were better off in Muslim Spain than in Christian nations is a joke.
Feel free to disagree and feel free to back up any disagreement with substantive proof from your sources or mine. Otherwise all I here is your laughter.

Be well, friends, as life is short and precious and while today we might feel young and strong, before long, it will be our time to retire and fade into memory. That is, before long according to the Geologic timescale.......

Akil
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cxt
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Post by cxt »

Akil

Impossible to have any sort of rational discussion with you.

You make to many errors. You dont read the material posted and what you do read you don't seem to understand.

Example:

I stated that you can't use events that happened 400 years ago to justify acts committed today--I used the Crusades as an example---ie. the Crusades took place over 400 years in the past.

Your response of 3/01 and I quote.

"The Crusades were not over 400 years ago, they lasted as long as 200 years, so feel free to check your facts."

See, thats a substantive error on your part.

See, its now 2004--subtract 400 years from 2004 and you have the date of 1604--the Crusades were over well before that.

What YOUR saying is that the Crusades LASTED for over 200 years--and your right.

BUT WHAT I SAID WAS THAT THEY HAVE BEEN OVER FOR 400 YEARS.

See, thats two very different things.

Beg, borrow or steal a clue brother, you need one badly!!!

And no, I am not giveing ANYONE a "pass" since you quite odviously didn't read my post I'll say it again--and I'll say it slowly--just for you .

If---You--Go---Far---Enough--Back---In--History---No--Nations---Has---The---Moral---High---Ground---Both---Christian---And---Musliums---Have---Too---Much---Blood---On---Their---Hands---To---Go---Around---Pointing---Fingers.

Get it this time???

Sorry dude, you have a clear and well documented anti-western bias--I turn to the reams of anti-western venom you have posted over a period of several months. Inculding your last post.

In which you stated "if we are ever to achive peace in the middle east we might have to think outside the box and envision a soceity in which Jews and Musliums live in peace again as they have more than once in the past."

A-You haven't presented any evidence of "more then once" you listed a single example and then spin it into many

B-The example you listed was many hundrads of years in the past--has no relation to events of today--as I already pointed out.

C-The underlaying posit is flawed--the only example you have given of Jews and Musliums living in peace was under the Caliphite (sp) in which Jews lived under a Muslium regime that had total control---Jews living under Muslium overlords.

So all we have to do is restore the Caliphite (sp) and the Jews will be safe??

D-The current, you know todays reality, is that Jews are in charge of thier homeland and the many Muslium states can't stand that--witness the number of invasions of Jews land by Musliums----NOTE the Muslium States attacked/invaded the Jews NOT the Jews invading the Muslium states.

See these are all substantive errors in your posit.

On another note---you seem to have your undergarments all in a twist over my screen name--couple problems with that.

A-Thats whats known as an "ad hominum attack"--you can't beat my arguments so you call in question my not posting my "real" name.
Weak, weak, weak, weak, weak

B-How do I know your "REALLY" Akil Todd Harvey??
You could be anyone, a 13 year old girl, some high school kid, college freshman, anyone.
Just because YOU say you are means nothing.
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Akil Todd Harvey
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Post by Akil Todd Harvey »

CXT,

Address issues, not personalities.......I think you are taking this a bit too personally, dont you?

And thanks for not enflaming..........
Beg, borrow or steal a clue brother, you need one badly!!!
This is some great dialogue, but I wonder how we are ever gonna develop a greater understanding of each other when we cant put out insults down for even a single post.


Actually, cxt, it was kind of ambiguous whether you were disucssing the crusades or the spanish inquisition.........both of which occurred over long periods of history......and both of which have considerable bearing on today (a debatable point, but then again, I am waiting to see some form of debate or dialogue other than mere name calling and what can now be recognized to be deliberate misrepresentation........


If you folks ever get a chance to dialogue, feel free to invite me.

Have a nice day
:D

Akil
Last edited by Akil Todd Harvey on Tue Mar 02, 2004 4:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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