Katrina - what the hell went wrong???

[RACastanet]

Many good comments but his says it all:

in the US Army, we were taught to work together and to quit all the whining.

Great point:

Van, Rich and I have had very specific threads devoted just to these issues.

There is no better solution than personal responsibility. I will admit that I am a closet survivalist, but few will admit to their almost complete denial of what can happen in a cataclysmic event.

When Isabelle crossed just west of Richmond (worst case for my part of town) in September of 2003 I was fully prepared for at least a week without any utilities and services. Luckily we had light damage and electricity and water wereback on in less than two days. Some were without power and water for weeks. Eighty percent of VA was off the electrical grid at one point... that is almost 6 million people! No looting or anarchy that I can recall.

Last year Gaston's rains literally washed away the low lying areas of Richmond. Some areas are still trying to rebuild. No anarchy there either.

Rich

[Guest]

Last year Gaston's rains literally washed away the low lying areas of Richmond. Some areas are still trying to rebuild. No anarchy there either.

Rich

Just out of curiosity, what is the ethnic composition of that area your referring too? I may turn in some extra credit work to my Statistics teacher.

[Bill Glasheen]

See Richmond City Vital Statistics.

Median resident age: 33.9 years
Median household income: $31,121 (year 2000)
Median house value: $87,300 (year 2000)


Races in Richmond:

Black (57.2%)
White Non-Hispanic (37.7%)
Hispanic (2.6%)
Other race (1.5%)
Two or more races (1.5%)
American Indian (0.7%)
Ancestries: English (8.5%), German (6.1%), Irish (5.4%), United States (3.8%), Scottish (2.0%), Italian (1.9%).


For population 25 years and over in Richmond

High school or higher: 75.2%
Bachelor's degree or higher: 29.5%
Graduate or professional degree: 10.8%
Unemployed: 8.0%
Mean travel time to work: 22.1 minutes


For population 15 years and over in Richmond city

Never married: 40.9%
Now married: 34.7%
Separated: 4.2%
Widowed: 8.6%
Divorced: 11.5%
3.9% Foreign born (1.8% Latin America, 1.0% Asia, 0.7% Europe).

- Bill

[Guest]

Black (57.2%)
White Non-Hispanic (37.7%)

Can we narrow this down to the area Rich is reffering to?

[jorvik]

Quote
"The one thing I blame the federal bureaucracy for is the lack of foresight in terms of what it would do to energy production. A major portion of oil drilling and oil refinery capacity lies in the path of these storms. That's just a fact of nature, and can't completely be avoided. We are lucky that there are petroleum reserves, and that shows some forward planning. But you still need the people and their cities to run the economies that support this vital national interest."
Well I'm sorry to appear callous but this is where the real damage has been done ...to the economy, and not just the US economy
crude was priced at $60 a barrel now it's $70...............and who has got all the oil ...you guessed it those American loving Islamics.this could cause a whole lot of problems.

This year has had some pretty freaky weather incidents.never underestimate Mother Nature.or Global Warning.............and should Politicians be blamed if they are incompetant, well doctors are so I don't see why they shopuld be immune j:)

[Bill Glasheen]

jorvik

The fact that the price of a barrel of oil went up to $60 is due to increased demand by the booming Chinese and Indian economies. The fact that it continues to go up is IMO a blessing in disguise. The sooner we decrease the demand, the better. The sooner it's economically feasible to use alternative energy sources, the better for us. Cheap oil means all that alternative energy research just waits.

Why drive hybrids, produce biodiesel, proceed with gasification of coal, or do more research on fuel cells when oil is cheap?

Can we narrow this down to the area Rich is reffering to?

Shockoe Bottom is an industrial neighborhood that is home to Richmond's restaurant and nightclub district. Richmonders know better than to build homes in "the flood zone."

- Bill

[Mark Weitz]

Very interesting thread and appreciate everyone's comments. Unfotunately, I can't response to all.

Expecting the federal government to bail us all out of problems is demanding a recipe for financial disaster.

I don't expect the federal government to bail us all out and I certainly didn't make any statement to that effect. I was focussing specifically on those things that should have been done and have been cooberated by state level engineer corps. No one can say with certainty how things would be differnt had the fed opened up its wallet and funded at the levels recommended by government agencies. But I think it's still appropriate to carefully scrutizine all those that have a role and I will repeat one good reason: to ensure a more efficient/effective response, lessen the damage and keep to a minimum human suffering and death. I think we can agree that those are worthy goals.

Quite frankly I could care less if the "blame" word gets bandied about so long as there is better coordination and learning from the experience.

Some people like to make false dichotomies, that you're blaming or supporting the cuase. This is silly and misleading. One can support the cause, send money, volunteer, acknowledge what is going right AND at the same time look at what could've been done to ensure a better response. And I think that with a disaster of this scale it's vital that we do both.

I've become more aware, both from this forum and various media outlets, about the lack of preparing and poor response of Louisana state officials and I agree that this isn't just a federal problem.

Still, it would've been nice to see a more appropriate response from W.

Bill, I enjoy reading your posts (usually ) but I don't agree that laying blame, or perhaps better phrased, looking for limitations and poor past practices, hampers relief efforts. I don't agree with this logic. What hampers relief efforts is poor relief efforts and inadequate planning and coordination. If someone is bothered by negative comments about something I trust they're big enough to flip the page and ignore what they don't want to hear or believe.

"willful neglect and abication of responsibility by the US goverment" (sic)

HUH?

I find the technique of Reductio Ad Absurdum that I once taught in a logic course

I don't reduce everything so simplistically as you suggest and simply because I am angry at W for some things doesn't mean I blame him for all things, and you're stepping close to a straw man argument here.

Mark

[jorvik]

Quote
The sooner it's economically feasible to use alternative energy sources, the better for us. Cheap oil means all that alternative energy research just waits.

Well I totally agree with that sentiment, always have, oil is wasteful, we have to rely on other untrustworthy folks to supply it. we could even use steam.the steam engine using the technology we have now could be totally re-invented..but we have to rely on people ......and Dubya is an oilman, and I don't reckon he is going to give up on his pot of gold ( but hey! neither is our tony........he's house hunting in the caribean even as we speak ).....as long as there are folks with a vested interest, technology can be stifled

[IJ]

J, how are you planning to make that steam?

[Bill Glasheen]

Some photographs of Gaston's aftermath in Richmond - a year ago.

Where lost cars ended up...



Cars stacked up in front of Bottoms Up Pizza



St. John's Church



The new end of 31st Street



A car left by the side of the road.



Cafe Guentenberg



Farmer's Market

[RACastanet]

Good photos. Thanks.

Rich

[MikeK]

The fact that the price of a barrel of oil went up to $60 is due to increased demand by the booming Chinese and Indian economies. The fact that it continues to go up is IMO a blessing in disguise. The sooner we decrease the demand, the better. The sooner it's economically feasible to use alternative energy sources, the better for us. Cheap oil means all that alternative energy research just waits.

I don't know if it's a blessing if it goes up too quickly Bill. That jump in gas this week will screw up the plans and budgets for more than a few families and companies. Truckers will charge more, which will be passed onto the retailer, who will pass it on to the customer, who will purchase less goods. I'm looking out my window at the 4,000 sq ft homes going up complete with two story grand family rooms, and I'm wondering how the heck they're going to heat those monsters. I'm thinking about my friends farm and what feed for the critters is going to cost this year. I don't think we've seen the real ripple effect the jump in fuel prices will have, so I wouldn't count our blessings too fast.

I always wondered why the Flood Zone was named that.

[jorvik]

Ian
You can produce more steam with less oil..that is where it's at, using new technology on old ideas....You cannot neglect oil...you can employ other technologies as an interum .until new technologies take root......trouble is folks like Bush have a vested interest in promotimg the wasteful use of reserves ........if he didn't well The US could once again be the big guy on the block and you could say goodbye to the arab wannabies and their ideas..Bush could kiss goodbye to his tryst with the Bin Ladens

[RACastanet]

we could even use steam.the steam engine using the technology we have now could be totally re-invented.

No, not likely. The best piston type reciprocating steam engine is only about 15% efficient. That is not even close to gasoline and diesel internal combustion.

The major utilities burn coal, oil gas etc to produce steam to turn enormous turbines - 500 megawatt and larger - with preheaters, reheaters, extremely high pressures around 1,400 psi with steam superheated to near 1,000 degrees F and they cannot get 25% in a simple cycle.

Even countries like China with enormous coal reserves are retiring their steam locomotive fleet for diesel electrics. They just retired the last of the fleet in mainline service earlier this year. Wanna buy a nice steam locomotive?

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

I'm looking out my window at the 4,000 sq ft homes going up complete with two story grand family rooms, and I'm wondering how the heck they're going to heat those monsters. I'm thinking about my friends farm and what feed for the critters is going to cost this year. I don't think we've seen the real ripple effect the jump in fuel prices will have, so I wouldn't count our blessings too fast.

Until it hurts, people will not change their behavior, Mike. Imagine what farming technology would be like if slavery was still legal. When would the cotton gin have been invented?

Having driven and lived through the Arab oil embargo in the 1970s, I made some careful choices in my home purchases. Today I live in an I.C.E. Block construction home with an efficient Colonial (boxy) design.

I had no sympathy for young investers in the 1990s putting mega bucks into new companies with no earnings. Similarly I do not sympathize with the west enders here purchasing their supersized SUVs and buying those big-assed, wasteful megahomes with interest-only loans (assuming real estate always will increase in value). The good thing about economic cycles is that it shakes off the unproductive stupidity in our ecomony.

Fasten your seatbelts! If you save your pennies, you may find yourself a nice home for a good price in just a bit.

- Bill