Why do we lose students from our dojos?

[Griffin]

I left my last dojo because all the sensei did was spar and also for monetary reasons. Not that there is anything wrong with sparring or working sparring drills, but I wanted more of a ballance with kata practice. Even if I had the money, I still would have left that dojo in search for another. But, that's because I grew up doing the kata so I love doing them over and over.

But, I think we are missing a major social factor here. Western "civilization" is pre-occupied with instant gratification. Many people don't want to work hard for an extended period of time without a reward. In psychology there is a rule that says (maybe not in exact terms) that: the more immediate the reward the more its worth. The longer a person has to wait for a reward, the less it is worth to the person receiving it.

I think it takes a special person to stay with there practice of martial arts for years. Or else there would be martial arts masters running around everywhere.

[Guest]

But their are masters running around everywhere. I think there's like 80 folks or so in the IUKF who can claim that title.

Who knows how many other masters are in the sister organizations...and then there are the other styles.

But with 40 million folks doing martial arts I guess its not surprising we have a few

[MikeK]

Blaming Western values is a cop out and avoids the issue.

What is it about karate that it isn't attracting people the way it used to?

[Stryke]

What is it about karate that it isn't attracting people the way it used to?

People are more knowledgable and informed .

Karate is only now mysterious to the dinousaurs who preach mystical mumbo jumbo and continue to hide behind tradition .

Theres a lot more choices , and some deliver better on there promises .

Only so many folks are interested in point karate , and while it`s a great tool in itself to generate interest .

I think the real issue is people want to be like in the movies , but really not bad enough to put in the yards , when they realise theres no answers they go to more hardcore gyms or realise that they aint got what it takes .

And youll continue to have family karate clubs , which isnt bad in itself , but it`s hardly preserving or expanding the art .

the systems rely on the exceptions to keep it strong ...

[Rob Kolenc]

Like Bill says.. wives complain that ..."oh.... I forgot.... you have to go to karate tonight ...no go have fun..."

But the reason I believe people quit is because of boredom. They need to feel like something is being accomplished. This whole "ahhh patience Daniel-San" stuff wears thin when you work your ass off practicing a kata over and over again..and that's all you are doing is trying to perfect your form, which is completely subjective and varies from dojo to dojo as to what a "good" kata is.

Also, if a dojo isn't just meeting your expectations of realistic training. If you are fighting the little voice in the back of your mind that says this is BS well you will eventually walk.

Ya, what he said!
Also, instructors can often be their own worst enemies. I've had 2 instructors who had both been teaching for a while and it was very clear in their body language and their actions that they were bored of teaching karate. Talk about the opposite of infectious enthusiasm. Also, sometimes instructors go off on a tangent (i.e. just katas 24/7), and you start to feel like you're wasting your time.

I think a great deal of the problem is also with the students. It is not normal in today's society for people to stick to something that's hard to do. People want to lose weight fast, get in shape fast, get rich quick, they want a lifestyle above their income so they leverage themselves to the hilt with debt, it takes long term dedication to save for retirement so most don't etc, etc. Bill's piano example is right on the money.

I think one of the fixes is for the student/teacher to always have a next mini goal they're working on with a deadline. I think the instructors could create "mini promotions" in between the belt rankings, especially for the higher belts where it takes longer to get the next belt. This should encourage a sense of positive momentum and progress for the student.

[Bill Glasheen]

And youll continue to have family karate clubs , which isnt bad in itself , but it`s hardly preserving or expanding the art .

This is conventional wisdom, but I don't agree.

The biggest problem I've had in getting martial arts groups going is developing "critical mass." As I see it, the expertise in the average martial group is like a pyramid, with the vast majority knowing little providing money and company and social benefits and teaching opportunities to the few on top who can take advantage of the resources that this larger group creates.

A Van and a Bobby Campbell and a Jimmy Malone and a Buzzy Durkin didn't come from broom closet dojos. They came from an era where Mattson had as many as 500 students in his various schools. The many supported the few.

One thing I realized at U.Va. when I passed the 100 mark is how valuable those folks on the white belt level were. They were the ones that made the parties fun. They were the frat boys and the sorority girls and a few varsity jocks and the politicos and some grad school geeks and the "heads" and the Asians of various ethnic origins and the "troubled" and a couple of people you knew one day would be movers and shakers and... and... They made being there fun. And that large group created the environment where I could give a dozen faithful time and space to play and grow to whatever levels they wanted to go.

I think martial arrogance is a big mistake.

- Bill

[MikeK]

I think the smartest sensei that I ever had was up on Long Island. He noticed that people were coming in to learn self defense, (it did say self defense on his sign) and not Jujutsu. They'd stay 1 - 3 months and then bail since they weren't getting what they needed. Instead of thinking about how to get people to black belt what he did was cater to these people.
Being a bouncer and bodyguard he figured out the most frequent kinds of attacks the average person walking in his door would face, found the highest percentage technique against them and then trained them as alive as we could back then (1980's). I don't know how many full force haymakers we threw at each other or how many hair pulls and half ass street type chokes we defended but it was enough that I can still do them today. You would eventually learn more and more advanced jujutsu if you stayed, but if you walked out at any point you had some usable skills to take with you.
Even after years of being away from that school I've been able to recall those 3 month techniques.

So maybe we should accept the fact that the average student will leave after 3 months and it would be better if (s)he left actually knowing something?

[Bill Glasheen]

Good point, Mike. My PE class at U.Va. was a feeder group to my "club" group with the more dedicated people.

What is that feeder group in suburbia? You know what we've found out here in the safe, nose-in-the-air, comfy West End? Hold a self defense class, and maybe 5 people show up.

Sheep!

That's not what the average person wants coming into OUR group. I think most walk in the gym in the first place because they are lonely and/or out of shape. Just a guess...

- Bill

[MikeK]

Execellent point Bill. How do you groom those at the top to be teachers?
We're cross posting!

You're right about the self defense. Brian Kennedy did weekly CDT classes for a year at no extra charge. I think it was like $200 for the seminar and then one class a week. The regulars ended up Brian, me, one of his black belts. We had a blast but maybe 5 percent of the people from the seminar would show up for awhile and then bail.

[cxt]

I usually chalk it up it to unrealistic expectations.

People don't "really" understand how much hard work is involved.
Nor the time it takes to get anything to work well.

I have consistantly had the best results--in terms of sticking with it and quality of technique, from folks that used to play sports, mainly football.

( spend ALOT of time trying to educate folks prior to taking a class--trying to get them to understand just what it is they are signing up to do.

A buddy of mine has prospective students come to about a month of classes--wear whatever they like, just kinda "test drive" the class for a while--hang out, no uniform, get some "hands-on"
Little pressure, just get them used to what is going on.

He claims that doing so saves ALOT of time later)

Another problem are is that the overll perception of MA thses is that they are something that "kids" do--that they somehow are not an "adult" activity.

Which I see as odd given that not all that long ago a "kids" class was kinda rare and most folks that practiced MA's were adults.

Now kids make a very large portion of the ma students--and they are what the public views/see's as an examples of the arts overall.

[Bill Glasheen]

How do you groom those at the top to be teachers?

By allowing them to teach.

At UVa, I'd assign a brand new shodan to the PE group coming in. Maybe they were good at teaching and maybe they weren't. Some rose to the occasion, and some frankly were bores. But when people complained, I told them that one such instructor came from perhaps 50 people walking in the door. They were the gold in the pan, and needed to be nurtured.

As long as I spoonfeed people in the dojo, they remain dependent and stupid. I don't want that; I am not their guru. I try to get people up front or working with others teaching simple things ASAP. As they say, learning has three stages: watching, doing, and teaching.

- Bill

[MikeK]

I've been tossed into that fire a few times. Found out that I liked helping people out on a one on one basis.

I do think people have to be careful about who they send up front, a bad teacher early on could give a bad impression to someone new.

[benzocaine]

What about time?





In America today people are spening more and more time working, but realize the need to stay in shape. I am willing to bet fitness is a strong factor in peoples choice to join a dojo.

Free time is precious... why not rise an hour early to go to the gym, than stay late on the dojo when you wife complains she never sees you, or the kids never see you.

Let's face it.. you stay in better physical condition doing 45 minutes of weights 3 days a week and 25-30 minutes of aerobic activity three other days, than the same amount of time invested in traditional karate practice.

(BTW-- I am playing Devil's advocate here)

[RACastanet]

Good point Ben. We have a great place for Uechi in the fitness club but at the same time the members have dozens of programs to choose from. If a person is time limited they pick one, maybe two classes, and that is all they can schedule in.

Besides the Uechi class, there are any number of aerobics classes. There is even a 'boot camp' session for the really serious. I'm talking with the woman in charge about a ladies 'self defense' class to see if I can tap that large group.

Personally, I have wandered off into the Marine's version of a martial art and deeper into the use of firearms. Uechi still has a place but must share my time.

Rich

[Glenn]

I run into the family-time conflict issue all the time. I teach a college class on Monday/Wednesday nights, so if I go to karate on Tuesday/Thursday that is 4 nights my family doesn't see me. And since we are a one-car family, that also means my family is stuck at home those four nights...something my wife hates. My oldest daughter likes to go to karate with me, but it still is not family time. It also is not fitness time for the entire family

As a family it is better for us to go to the fitness center and exercise/swim together. Then the whole family gets exercise. Plus it has a hot tub!

So I have to compromise. Go to karate class no more than once a week and compensate by working in some training on my own at home.

Frankly I think dojo would attract a lot more students if they install hot tubs!