RE: "My reason for coming out of "lurke" mode is to ask if you or anyone is aware of reading material on the subject matter of these "signals". There is someone close to me that I have been trying to get to understand this but I have been unable to get my hands on any convincing material."
LAC,
try the no-nonesence self defence page - you can get to it thru the Animal link at http://www.combatcoalition.com/, he's the best. Join his animal list too for continuing discussions about issues like this.
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The Fighting Old Man
Martial Art Cults!
Martial Art Cults!
Originally posted by Canna, sensei to GEM's article on cults:
How about legal action in these cases, Alan?
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Van Canna.
There will be revealed in GEM's articles, many actions that constitute civil and criminal conduct by these so called "Masters".
I cannot say more because I was involved in the original committee as the painful story was related in bits and pieces over several months. The security and privacy of this brave person who endured this horror must be preserved, but I can say that she is doing well considering all that she was subjected to.
What you read from GEM is an articulate and accurate account presented in a tasteful manner, summarized from the writings of a person who had taken a traumatic mental beating and was ready to tell others of her ordeal for her self healing and to help others.
I hope that all readers will follow this story.
Alan K
Alan K
How about legal action in these cases, Alan?
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Van Canna.
There will be revealed in GEM's articles, many actions that constitute civil and criminal conduct by these so called "Masters".
I cannot say more because I was involved in the original committee as the painful story was related in bits and pieces over several months. The security and privacy of this brave person who endured this horror must be preserved, but I can say that she is doing well considering all that she was subjected to.
What you read from GEM is an articulate and accurate account presented in a tasteful manner, summarized from the writings of a person who had taken a traumatic mental beating and was ready to tell others of her ordeal for her self healing and to help others.
I hope that all readers will follow this story.
Alan K
Alan K
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Scott Danziger
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Once the entire story is completed, I hope to see it in it's entirety in the article section of the site. I find it fascinating, disturbing, and educational.
Martial Art Cults!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
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Van Canna
Even more so when providing with a window to the soul.I find it fascinating, disturbing, and educational.
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Van Canna
Martial Art Cults!
the recent Central Park attacks in which dozens of women were groped, stripped, and humiliated by a small army of assailants.
According to eyewitnesses interviewed for a report on NBC's Dateline, the situation started out "innocently" enough, with some horny, soused men spraying water guns at women passing by--an impromptu, involuntary wet-T-shirt contest.
Allegedly, some women liked the attention enough that they voluntarily ran this gauntlet again and again. [ think how this initial group of emotionally challenged women doomed the rest of them] __
But the power dynamic in this "mutual" sex play eventually revealed its true, lopsided nature: Now, as other women tried to pass from one side of the park to another, they were being grabbed, hounded, terrorized.
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Van Canna
According to eyewitnesses interviewed for a report on NBC's Dateline, the situation started out "innocently" enough, with some horny, soused men spraying water guns at women passing by--an impromptu, involuntary wet-T-shirt contest.
Allegedly, some women liked the attention enough that they voluntarily ran this gauntlet again and again. [ think how this initial group of emotionally challenged women doomed the rest of them] __
But the power dynamic in this "mutual" sex play eventually revealed its true, lopsided nature: Now, as other women tried to pass from one side of the park to another, they were being grabbed, hounded, terrorized.
------------------
Van Canna
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gmattson
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Part Five
Our lessons became increasingly more brutal. 'The Master' would fly into a rage, trembling, hands tightened into white knuckled fists, while he would scream at the class, at me, accusing us of attempting to destroy him.
'Master P' would calm him and take over the class, scolding us for driving 'The Master' into rage. We must all understand that 'The Master was an elevated spirit, a being of unparalleled power and wisdom.
Terror became part of my life. At home, I was terrified that I would say something that would jeopardize my husband or children. At the dojo, I strived to remain respectful, petrified that my actions would send 'The Master' into a paroxysm of violence and anger.
Would 'The Master' allow me to quit? Would he let me walk away, after all he had told me, without retribution?
I had to do something. I couldn't live this way any longer. I couldn't eat, I couldn't think, all I wanted to do was escape. But where and how?
Three days later I was raped.
'The Master' took me aside to talk to me. He led me into the kitchen. I could hear the sounds of the class practicing on the other side of the door. 'The Master' told me my practice suit was inappropriate. It excited the other students.
I was wearing what I always wore, a tee shirt and work-out shorts.
"If you dress like a slut, men will treat you like a slut," 'The Master' told me. "Is this the way you wish to be treated?"
His hands were locked into fists. I could see the anger building behind his eyes.
"What are you trying to do to me? he sneered, then reached out to touch me.
Before I could move away, he grabbed me.
Could I have fought him off? I don't know. All I could think was this man had killed people, and had told me he would kill again. Would he kill me? My husband? Where would it stop?
Would it ever stop?
When he was done with me , he told me to quickly fix myself up and get back to class.
Our lessons became increasingly more brutal. 'The Master' would fly into a rage, trembling, hands tightened into white knuckled fists, while he would scream at the class, at me, accusing us of attempting to destroy him.
'Master P' would calm him and take over the class, scolding us for driving 'The Master' into rage. We must all understand that 'The Master was an elevated spirit, a being of unparalleled power and wisdom.
Terror became part of my life. At home, I was terrified that I would say something that would jeopardize my husband or children. At the dojo, I strived to remain respectful, petrified that my actions would send 'The Master' into a paroxysm of violence and anger.
Would 'The Master' allow me to quit? Would he let me walk away, after all he had told me, without retribution?
I had to do something. I couldn't live this way any longer. I couldn't eat, I couldn't think, all I wanted to do was escape. But where and how?
Three days later I was raped.
'The Master' took me aside to talk to me. He led me into the kitchen. I could hear the sounds of the class practicing on the other side of the door. 'The Master' told me my practice suit was inappropriate. It excited the other students.
I was wearing what I always wore, a tee shirt and work-out shorts.
"If you dress like a slut, men will treat you like a slut," 'The Master' told me. "Is this the way you wish to be treated?"
His hands were locked into fists. I could see the anger building behind his eyes.
"What are you trying to do to me? he sneered, then reached out to touch me.
Before I could move away, he grabbed me.
Could I have fought him off? I don't know. All I could think was this man had killed people, and had told me he would kill again. Would he kill me? My husband? Where would it stop?
Would it ever stop?
When he was done with me , he told me to quickly fix myself up and get back to class.
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gmattson
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Comment by author of "Martial Art Cults"
George,
There are a few comments that I would like to express: This can be posted if you like.
These abuses that occurred were acts of violence in the guise of the MA's and no matter what kind of signals a student may or may not give out , a martial art instructor is in a position of power and is 100% responsible. This is a student-teacher relationship and we like to trust these professionals. When these well "trained" instructors find the right buttons to push, anyone could be victimized. Train a student to exaustion, have them meditate which is a perfect enviornment to manilupate a person. The victim is easily blamed in these situations. Even the most emotionally stable people can be a target with these "well trained" instructors. This is how cults work in the Martial Arts.
George,
There are a few comments that I would like to express: This can be posted if you like.
These abuses that occurred were acts of violence in the guise of the MA's and no matter what kind of signals a student may or may not give out , a martial art instructor is in a position of power and is 100% responsible. This is a student-teacher relationship and we like to trust these professionals. When these well "trained" instructors find the right buttons to push, anyone could be victimized. Train a student to exaustion, have them meditate which is a perfect enviornment to manilupate a person. The victim is easily blamed in these situations. Even the most emotionally stable people can be a target with these "well trained" instructors. This is how cults work in the Martial Arts.
Martial Art Cults!
"....three days later I was raped."
To my mind, reading this, the "rape" happened way before that.
This whole situation has sent me through the spectrum of emotions:
- Angry that stuff like this happens.
- Disgusted that someone would abuse another.
- Sad that someone suffered such abuse.
- Thankful that I have never experienced this in my martial arts study.
- Grateful that the story is being shared with others.
- Hopeful that others in similar situations may read this and get help.
To my mind, reading this, the "rape" happened way before that.
This whole situation has sent me through the spectrum of emotions:
- Angry that stuff like this happens.
- Disgusted that someone would abuse another.
- Sad that someone suffered such abuse.
- Thankful that I have never experienced this in my martial arts study.
- Grateful that the story is being shared with others.
- Hopeful that others in similar situations may read this and get help.
Martial Art Cults!
Mary wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Like "preventive" value, so as to trigger danger and evasion response.
One question:
Was every female in the Dojo befallen by the same fate?
If not, what made those women escape the horror?
Did the ones who were ensnared exhibit certain emotional traits befitting a "profile" as perceived by the "master" ?
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Van Canna
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Truer words never spoken. I think that this series is excellent but it must stimulate thinking in order to be of value.To my mind, reading this, the "rape" happened way before that.
Like "preventive" value, so as to trigger danger and evasion response.
One question:
Was every female in the Dojo befallen by the same fate?
If not, what made those women escape the horror?
Did the ones who were ensnared exhibit certain emotional traits befitting a "profile" as perceived by the "master" ?
------------------
Van Canna
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gmattson
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I've been asked to post a couple of comments by the person involved.
A list : Promoting Dependency and Obedience in a MA cult
- Cult leaders are good Con Men - Portrays themselves as Outstanding citizens - In the begining, praises and flatters; recruitment through favouritism - Uses excessive charm and convincing , say what people want to hear. - Sophiscated setting - Individualism discouraged - Strict obeidence and behavior control - Exhorbitant lesson fees, and encouraged students to spend all their money in the school, deceptive business practices - Compulsive need to control - Fraudulently claims qualifications, credentials that are misleading - Altered state of consciousness; meditation, incense and candle light - Invasion of privacy, personal questions asked about finances and personal lives - Unable to maintain confidentiality - Preoccupied with bringing in new members, more money - Isolation from family and friends; Instructors would give students dojo duties and spend all their free time in the dojo - TKD always had to come first - Everyone had to be totally subservant to the Master and Respect was demanded - Could not question authority; unfair dismissal, NO REFUNDS - Could not read any other literature except what the "Master" gives you to read about TKD - Guilt and fear were used with emotional highs and lows - Something bad was going to happen to you if you quit - Humilation , slander and harassment were used until you became a black belt - Bullying is devious and manipulative, leaving students in a state of terror
These are just a few of the manipulative tactics used in this particular Martial Art cult.
Mia , Author of Martial Arts Cults
A list : Promoting Dependency and Obedience in a MA cult
- Cult leaders are good Con Men - Portrays themselves as Outstanding citizens - In the begining, praises and flatters; recruitment through favouritism - Uses excessive charm and convincing , say what people want to hear. - Sophiscated setting - Individualism discouraged - Strict obeidence and behavior control - Exhorbitant lesson fees, and encouraged students to spend all their money in the school, deceptive business practices - Compulsive need to control - Fraudulently claims qualifications, credentials that are misleading - Altered state of consciousness; meditation, incense and candle light - Invasion of privacy, personal questions asked about finances and personal lives - Unable to maintain confidentiality - Preoccupied with bringing in new members, more money - Isolation from family and friends; Instructors would give students dojo duties and spend all their free time in the dojo - TKD always had to come first - Everyone had to be totally subservant to the Master and Respect was demanded - Could not question authority; unfair dismissal, NO REFUNDS - Could not read any other literature except what the "Master" gives you to read about TKD - Guilt and fear were used with emotional highs and lows - Something bad was going to happen to you if you quit - Humilation , slander and harassment were used until you became a black belt - Bullying is devious and manipulative, leaving students in a state of terror
These are just a few of the manipulative tactics used in this particular Martial Art cult.
Mia , Author of Martial Arts Cults
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gmattson
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Again, from the person who wrote the article.[/]
In this particular dojo, everyone is a victim/target to some extent. All of this dysfunction can be traced by these 2 Instructors. Vulnerability is the major stimulant to 'Master S'.
In this particular dojo, everyone is a victim/target to some extent. All of this dysfunction can be traced by these 2 Instructors. Vulnerability is the major stimulant to 'Master S'.
Martial Art Cults!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LAC:
My reason for coming out of "lurker" mode is to ask if you or anyone is aware of reading material on the subject matter of these "signals". There is someone close to me that I have been trying to get to understand this but I have been unable to get my hands on any convincing material.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.HTML
This was originally intended as a guide for evaluating religious and spiritual groups, but the overlap between those potential cults and martial arts' cults is frighteningly close, IMO.
Make what you will of it; I think it gives you a good tool for evaluating the "Why do I have a funny, uncomfortable feeling about this?" signal.
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited May 27, 2001).]
My reason for coming out of "lurker" mode is to ask if you or anyone is aware of reading material on the subject matter of these "signals". There is someone close to me that I have been trying to get to understand this but I have been unable to get my hands on any convincing material.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.HTML
This was originally intended as a guide for evaluating religious and spiritual groups, but the overlap between those potential cults and martial arts' cults is frighteningly close, IMO.
Make what you will of it; I think it gives you a good tool for evaluating the "Why do I have a funny, uncomfortable feeling about this?" signal.
student
[This message has been edited by student (edited May 27, 2001).]
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gmattson
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Part Six
I rearranged my clothes and stumbled out of the kitchen.
'Master P' turned to glare at me. "The Master's favorite Pet is ready to join our class, " she announced sarcastically.
I felt the eyes of the class burning through me as I walked across the dojo.
I called the dojo that night and quit. I could hear 'Master S' screaming in the background, as I mumbled the words and quickly hung up the phone.
I convinced my husband to take us all away for a week. I was terrified to stay at the house, convinced 'The Master' would do something to us.
It's taken me a year to look at this experience with any objectivity.
It humiliates me to realize what I have done.
When I look over these pages, I realize there was no other conclusion to this whole horrendous episode.
When I look back, I can clearly see how easily I was manipulated. But while it was happening, it happened so quickly and so insidiously there was never a time when I was able to step back and see what actually was taking place.
I was afraid to post this, afraid that people will read it and see only my own weakness.
I was weak. I don't deny that. I should have been stronger. I can't excuse myself, and I'm not asking anyone to excuse me.
What I want people to know and to understand, is that this happens. It happens in every facet of life, and the Martial Arts are no exception.
There are abusers and users everywhere. They hide wherever they can, and use whomever they can. This is not an indictment of Martial Arts, but it is an indictment of those corrupt individuals who abuse it to meet their own twisted needs.
The only solace I can take from this horrifying experience is the hope, that by making this known, I might help you or someone you love avoid what I was unable to see.
I rearranged my clothes and stumbled out of the kitchen.
'Master P' turned to glare at me. "The Master's favorite Pet is ready to join our class, " she announced sarcastically.
I felt the eyes of the class burning through me as I walked across the dojo.
I called the dojo that night and quit. I could hear 'Master S' screaming in the background, as I mumbled the words and quickly hung up the phone.
I convinced my husband to take us all away for a week. I was terrified to stay at the house, convinced 'The Master' would do something to us.
It's taken me a year to look at this experience with any objectivity.
It humiliates me to realize what I have done.
When I look over these pages, I realize there was no other conclusion to this whole horrendous episode.
When I look back, I can clearly see how easily I was manipulated. But while it was happening, it happened so quickly and so insidiously there was never a time when I was able to step back and see what actually was taking place.
I was afraid to post this, afraid that people will read it and see only my own weakness.
I was weak. I don't deny that. I should have been stronger. I can't excuse myself, and I'm not asking anyone to excuse me.
What I want people to know and to understand, is that this happens. It happens in every facet of life, and the Martial Arts are no exception.
There are abusers and users everywhere. They hide wherever they can, and use whomever they can. This is not an indictment of Martial Arts, but it is an indictment of those corrupt individuals who abuse it to meet their own twisted needs.
The only solace I can take from this horrifying experience is the hope, that by making this known, I might help you or someone you love avoid what I was unable to see.
Martial Art Cults!
Ditto to everything that Mary has said in her last post.
Only one addition.
Ashamed to be associated in the same postion (job description of Sensei) as these sub-human beings.
I hope people do not judge all Sensei by these two morons.
For every one of these jerks out there, you can find 100 of quality Sensei and dojo around.
If you are joining a dojo, talk to the students and the parents of the junior students about the school. I encourage my prospects to do so. Any well intentioned Sensei would unless they have something to hide.
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Len
Only one addition.
Ashamed to be associated in the same postion (job description of Sensei) as these sub-human beings.
I hope people do not judge all Sensei by these two morons.
For every one of these jerks out there, you can find 100 of quality Sensei and dojo around.
If you are joining a dojo, talk to the students and the parents of the junior students about the school. I encourage my prospects to do so. Any well intentioned Sensei would unless they have something to hide.
------------------
Len
Martial Art Cults!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
But the dynamics will always boil down to predator/prey behavior.
Natural prey [human or animal] sends out unconscious signals intercepted by the predator’s ever-vigilant interceptors.
Some women send out prey signals by the way they talk, dress, the manner of speech, and body language.
Also by the way they respond to the perennial “interview.”
Failure to establish boundaries as a result of “denied” early warnings, sets them up for the “kill” that takes many forms.
Imagine a man taking out a woman on a first date. He kisses her goodnight and asks if he could come in for a “night cap”! The woman does not want him to come in, but does not answer and she goes into her house leaving the front door open. What signal do you think the man is perceiving?
And many women don’t realize they are setting themselves up by prey behavior because they feel they have a right to act as they wish, also because they have low self-esteem and are constantly seeking validation by the opposite sex.
Then, to their dismay, they begin to realize too late that a certain man is becoming a problem, that he is refusing to honor late evolving boundaries, and forcing a relationship by manipulating the victim into an “obligation” scheme, by always calling, showing up uninvited under pretext, at events and even at work, sending gifts, talking to her friends, getting too personal with questions, sending flowers, in essence, becoming a nightmare.
Here is De Becker in the “Gift of Fear” __
__ The victim selection, which he calls “the interview” is similar to a shark circling potential prey. The predator of every variety is looking for someone, a vulnerable someone who will allow him to be in control, and just as the victim constantly gives signals, so does he read them. __
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Van Canna
This is a very poignant story, and very courageous for the victim to write the above, because that’s where the real lesson lies.It humiliates me to realize what I have done. When I look back, I can clearly see how easily I was manipulated. I was afraid to post this, afraid that people will read it and see only my own weakness. I was weak. I don't deny that. I should have been stronger. I can't excuse myself, and I'm not asking anyone to excuse me.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
This is, of course true of every walk of life. At work or at play, on the Internet, among a group of your own friends, even.There are abusers and users everywhere. They hide wherever they can, and use whomever they can. This is not an indictment of Martial Arts, but it is an indictment of those corrupt individuals who abuse it to meet their own twisted needs.
But the dynamics will always boil down to predator/prey behavior.
Natural prey [human or animal] sends out unconscious signals intercepted by the predator’s ever-vigilant interceptors.
Some women send out prey signals by the way they talk, dress, the manner of speech, and body language.
Also by the way they respond to the perennial “interview.”
Failure to establish boundaries as a result of “denied” early warnings, sets them up for the “kill” that takes many forms.
Imagine a man taking out a woman on a first date. He kisses her goodnight and asks if he could come in for a “night cap”! The woman does not want him to come in, but does not answer and she goes into her house leaving the front door open. What signal do you think the man is perceiving?
And many women don’t realize they are setting themselves up by prey behavior because they feel they have a right to act as they wish, also because they have low self-esteem and are constantly seeking validation by the opposite sex.
Then, to their dismay, they begin to realize too late that a certain man is becoming a problem, that he is refusing to honor late evolving boundaries, and forcing a relationship by manipulating the victim into an “obligation” scheme, by always calling, showing up uninvited under pretext, at events and even at work, sending gifts, talking to her friends, getting too personal with questions, sending flowers, in essence, becoming a nightmare.
Here is De Becker in the “Gift of Fear” __
__ The victim selection, which he calls “the interview” is similar to a shark circling potential prey. The predator of every variety is looking for someone, a vulnerable someone who will allow him to be in control, and just as the victim constantly gives signals, so does he read them. __
------------------
Van Canna
