John was the last living disciple who wrote the Book of Revelations and referred to himself as 'the disciple whom Jesus loved'. He was among the 'inner three' or those closest to Jesus.....the other two were Peter and James.
Vicki
Spirituality vs Religion
Moderator: Available
Spirituality vs Religion
FYI:
John was the last living disciple who wrote the Book of Revelations and referred to himself as 'the disciple whom Jesus loved'. He was among the 'inner three' or those closest to Jesus.....the other two were Peter and James.
Vicki
John was the last living disciple who wrote the Book of Revelations and referred to himself as 'the disciple whom Jesus loved'. He was among the 'inner three' or those closest to Jesus.....the other two were Peter and James.
Vicki
an important parallel?
I know Kerry has desperately tried to keep this thread tied to MA, so in support, may I offer the following:
As far as spirituality is concerned, it is the realization, by looking within, that there is more to (wo)man than the physical, and that there exists a connection between us all which surfaces at the most unexpected moments.
The homeless man you give a dollar, the lady you hold the door for, the tired clerk you smile at, the child on TV living in a box.
That's spirituality...the non-physical reality of all of us.
Now religion...(deep breath)... is a way of codifying our spiritual nature into a construct which explains it.
Every religion believes fervently that IT is THE ONE.
They can't all differ, yet all be right.
Religions differ strongly as to what is spiritual reality, so this business of "we all end up at the same place by different paths" is crap.
I think that in MA, people start out on the path as students, but find their own reality after a lifetime of dedication. To them, THIS is reality. Of course it is...for them.
However, they become convinced that THEIR reality is the ONLY reality, and so now they own the BIG SECRET.
They now feel isolated from their peers, who don't see the BIG SECRET, and so they shun their former peers who are so "ignorant".
Having achieved the goal of Martial Arts: to find your own reality in it: they believe they are alone in their discovery.
And so, a new religion (MA) is born.
("All references to living people, real or imagined, is co-incidental, and any such references are not intended by the author...i.e.me.")
NM
As far as spirituality is concerned, it is the realization, by looking within, that there is more to (wo)man than the physical, and that there exists a connection between us all which surfaces at the most unexpected moments.
The homeless man you give a dollar, the lady you hold the door for, the tired clerk you smile at, the child on TV living in a box.
That's spirituality...the non-physical reality of all of us.
Now religion...(deep breath)... is a way of codifying our spiritual nature into a construct which explains it.
Every religion believes fervently that IT is THE ONE.
They can't all differ, yet all be right.
Religions differ strongly as to what is spiritual reality, so this business of "we all end up at the same place by different paths" is crap.
I think that in MA, people start out on the path as students, but find their own reality after a lifetime of dedication. To them, THIS is reality. Of course it is...for them.
However, they become convinced that THEIR reality is the ONLY reality, and so now they own the BIG SECRET.
They now feel isolated from their peers, who don't see the BIG SECRET, and so they shun their former peers who are so "ignorant".
Having achieved the goal of Martial Arts: to find your own reality in it: they believe they are alone in their discovery.
And so, a new religion (MA) is born.
("All references to living people, real or imagined, is co-incidental, and any such references are not intended by the author...i.e.me.")
NM
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Stryke
2Green your beginning to sound more jaded than me 
there is spirituality in martial arts , I try play it down because not many people understand the word .
Training can lift my spirits , and renew me , refresh and revitalise , Hmmm .... If I could just stick it in a can and sell for $2.95 , anyway
it has taught me about my will , my perception , and even realitys , Ive at times seperated my self , my ego , and my spirit , learnt what makes me tick , chances are I could of got this from other things , but Ive got to credit martial arts as well as my introspective nature .
I think a huge flaw is to try and teach spirit , or grow spirit , or train spirit , it`s there , everyone has it , it`s a matter of recognising it , releasing it
Dont become just be ......
if you think you`ve obtained it , or purchased it
, through some process , that to me is something else , but just MHO
Stryke
there is spirituality in martial arts , I try play it down because not many people understand the word .
Training can lift my spirits , and renew me , refresh and revitalise , Hmmm .... If I could just stick it in a can and sell for $2.95 , anyway
it has taught me about my will , my perception , and even realitys , Ive at times seperated my self , my ego , and my spirit , learnt what makes me tick , chances are I could of got this from other things , but Ive got to credit martial arts as well as my introspective nature .
I think a huge flaw is to try and teach spirit , or grow spirit , or train spirit , it`s there , everyone has it , it`s a matter of recognising it , releasing it
Dont become just be ......
if you think you`ve obtained it , or purchased it
, through some process , that to me is something else , but just MHO Stryke
smiling-
I can see how it happens- i.e. the religion of MA. Dare I say- that the head- (whomever it is for whatever dojo *lol* political joke here guys) of Uechi Ryu isn't God to me, and I don't worship/recognise him as omnipotent. I do use his style to excersize and teach my spirit how to grow and become known, how not to break if something terrible happens. Some people find that also in religion. Hence why I say religion too is an excersize. It's a mind-set, how you want to live your life. and yeah- everyone thinks they have the right way- the only way- and I say- sure- I'm sure you have a "piece" of the truth. What that piece is, how you choose to recognise it- etc.etc. determined by free-will, and shouldn't be by any other person. Same with MA. No one else should say to you- that style *****- come learn this one, or try to "steal" you away from the one you are at- that's manipulising and it's just wrong to impose on someone else's right to choose. Discussing and learning to be better informed, be it in deciding a style to practice, or a religion or both, whatever- should also be encouraged. As long as the discussions aren't manipulative and dis-respectful. A good teacher will always leave the choice to their student.
My 2 cents- *smiling* yes I'm trying to keep this within a context of MA because this is the type of forum we are in. Plus it's touchy- people get emotional and can't see where they are trying to over-throw a person's right to know or not know. Espescially people with more knowledge. It takes a lot of will-power not to try to influence someone else's thinking by explaining to them what you know in a manner that they will naturally agree with you. So I try to show both sides of a coin- say hey take it or leave it- your decision won't affect mine. But never would I ignore a chance for growth or knowledge.
anyway- tralalala lalalalalala lalalalalala la la
K *
I can see how it happens- i.e. the religion of MA. Dare I say- that the head- (whomever it is for whatever dojo *lol* political joke here guys) of Uechi Ryu isn't God to me, and I don't worship/recognise him as omnipotent. I do use his style to excersize and teach my spirit how to grow and become known, how not to break if something terrible happens. Some people find that also in religion. Hence why I say religion too is an excersize. It's a mind-set, how you want to live your life. and yeah- everyone thinks they have the right way- the only way- and I say- sure- I'm sure you have a "piece" of the truth. What that piece is, how you choose to recognise it- etc.etc. determined by free-will, and shouldn't be by any other person. Same with MA. No one else should say to you- that style *****- come learn this one, or try to "steal" you away from the one you are at- that's manipulising and it's just wrong to impose on someone else's right to choose. Discussing and learning to be better informed, be it in deciding a style to practice, or a religion or both, whatever- should also be encouraged. As long as the discussions aren't manipulative and dis-respectful. A good teacher will always leave the choice to their student.
My 2 cents- *smiling* yes I'm trying to keep this within a context of MA because this is the type of forum we are in. Plus it's touchy- people get emotional and can't see where they are trying to over-throw a person's right to know or not know. Espescially people with more knowledge. It takes a lot of will-power not to try to influence someone else's thinking by explaining to them what you know in a manner that they will naturally agree with you. So I try to show both sides of a coin- say hey take it or leave it- your decision won't affect mine. But never would I ignore a chance for growth or knowledge.
anyway- tralalala lalalalalala lalalalalala la la
K *
Hi again
Hi,
I'm surprised not more people took up my challenges in my last post.
No one has defined their interpretation of both spirituality and religion.?
I studied Religion and Philosophy at University.
So these are not mere speculations.
It is surprising 'in one way' how little so called Religous people now about how their particular Religion was started.
But obviously a lot of these people don't want to hear the truth.
MA's; yes there is a connection between these and Religions.
Isn't a big part of Religion to make us feel safe and that we are looked after?
Isn't that what MA's are partly or wholy( no pun intended) about.
I believe people often do almost Deify their 'Grand Masters'. Look at the Myths that build up around long dead Sensei.
There is a social element ot both Religion and MA's.
And we do think our MA's are the best no matter how arbitrarily we originally chose them, the same with Religion?
Take care
RK
I'm surprised not more people took up my challenges in my last post.
No one has defined their interpretation of both spirituality and religion.?
I studied Religion and Philosophy at University.
So these are not mere speculations.
It is surprising 'in one way' how little so called Religous people now about how their particular Religion was started.
But obviously a lot of these people don't want to hear the truth.
MA's; yes there is a connection between these and Religions.
Isn't a big part of Religion to make us feel safe and that we are looked after?
Isn't that what MA's are partly or wholy( no pun intended) about.
I believe people often do almost Deify their 'Grand Masters'. Look at the Myths that build up around long dead Sensei.
There is a social element ot both Religion and MA's.
And we do think our MA's are the best no matter how arbitrarily we originally chose them, the same with Religion?
Take care
RK
Music is the space in between the notes
I've been reading with interest and intrigue...
I don't know what the actual dictionary definition is for the two... but IMNSHO on the issue of Spirituality vs. Religion.
Religion, by definition, imposes an external discipline on you. It contains an external set of moral values to follow and has the necessary elements of faith and belief.
Spirituality does not have that external discipline. Being "spiritual" relies on one's on internal moral compass. To claim that one is "spiritual" without having an overriding religious context, means that the person only relies on their own personal morals and beliefs for guidance. This doesn't necessarily mean that the person has a lack of moral values, but it also doesn't mean the person has what would normally be considered "good" moral values. That is dependent on the person's prior religious lessons... and if those religious moral lessons are lacking, then one can still claim "spirituality", but there is no basis for others to know what moral values to associate with that person.
But we are not born with a moral compass... it is something that is taught and learned. And religion is the tool by which we learn those moral values and gain that moral compass. Like any discipline (in fact, training of any kind... even in MAs), the purpose is not primarily the act of training, but the result. While many will discuss the "journey" as the important part of MA training, what was the reason for starting the journey in the first place? The reason, even if different for different people (exercise, the "art", self-defense, etc) points to the original desired result. That result may change over time with the study of MAs, but the result of the discipline of MA training are those varied personal reasons and is the purpose of taking the "journey". The result of the discipline of religion is (minimally) a healthy, well-tuned moral compass. For the "spiritually minded" among you, religion is arguably the basis for your moral compass. Those without the will or desire to discipline themselves (in religion or any other kind of training), often lack the desirable moral compass needed in order to claim true "spirituality". Then they have the nerve to shout out "more-spiritual-than-thou" blather as they sit on their rudderless souls and stuff their faces with moral junk food.
I don't know what the actual dictionary definition is for the two... but IMNSHO on the issue of Spirituality vs. Religion.
Religion, by definition, imposes an external discipline on you. It contains an external set of moral values to follow and has the necessary elements of faith and belief.
Spirituality does not have that external discipline. Being "spiritual" relies on one's on internal moral compass. To claim that one is "spiritual" without having an overriding religious context, means that the person only relies on their own personal morals and beliefs for guidance. This doesn't necessarily mean that the person has a lack of moral values, but it also doesn't mean the person has what would normally be considered "good" moral values. That is dependent on the person's prior religious lessons... and if those religious moral lessons are lacking, then one can still claim "spirituality", but there is no basis for others to know what moral values to associate with that person.
But we are not born with a moral compass... it is something that is taught and learned. And religion is the tool by which we learn those moral values and gain that moral compass. Like any discipline (in fact, training of any kind... even in MAs), the purpose is not primarily the act of training, but the result. While many will discuss the "journey" as the important part of MA training, what was the reason for starting the journey in the first place? The reason, even if different for different people (exercise, the "art", self-defense, etc) points to the original desired result. That result may change over time with the study of MAs, but the result of the discipline of MA training are those varied personal reasons and is the purpose of taking the "journey". The result of the discipline of religion is (minimally) a healthy, well-tuned moral compass. For the "spiritually minded" among you, religion is arguably the basis for your moral compass. Those without the will or desire to discipline themselves (in religion or any other kind of training), often lack the desirable moral compass needed in order to claim true "spirituality". Then they have the nerve to shout out "more-spiritual-than-thou" blather as they sit on their rudderless souls and stuff their faces with moral junk food.
Last edited by Panther on Tue Mar 25, 2003 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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My God-given Rights are NOT "void where prohibited by law!"
My God-given Rights are NOT "void where prohibited by law!"
humn- so am I to understand that your opinion is, Panther, that if you are not involved in any particular organized religion that you are moral-less? having nothing to base the correct "way" a person should live? Or in order to determine yourself to be "spiritual" you must practice a religion? If that is the case I disagree. I too have studied a great many religions-(reg) and participated in several "denominations" and the biggest most appreant things they lacked were 1) the "practice" of the un-conditional love they proclaim to be striving for, and 2) in my experience, hypocracy. In being aware that I do have a "soul" and spiritual self- I do not want to by a hypocrite, nor do I want to impose on another's free-will by passing judgments on them that is not my responsibility.
There is a connection between religious worship and martial arts. both intend that you "do something" with your spiritual self. One directs you to worship, in the act of worshiping- you are to react a certian in your daily life- live a certian way... Martial arts helps you determine also how to react durring your daily lives, but it is certianly not moral-less- hence "defense only". It does not however, direct you towards "worshiping". That is altogether a different manner. People can be religious- and practice MA at the same time "because" the "value system" runs paralel to so many. So yeah- there is a connection, but it is not the same thing as a religion.
A person can absolutely be spiritual and aware of their soul's intent without being involved in a religion. Morals and values can be found outside of religion because they are with the bounds of common sense. A good person can be a good person just because they don't want to cause harm to another, knowing that by causing harm to another- it hurts them, the other person, and those around them, simply by seeing it. Those good people wouldn't want that to happen, simply because they are "good people". There are good people within religion also, they are just doing it for a different reason- their focus on life is different.
Even within religion- the main point of all "sermons" etc. is- or should be- the act of free-will. God allows people the choice to worship and recognise Him in their own way- because if He didn't- it wouldn't be true of heart. It would be driven by other reasons, say out of fear, or whatever, not out of simply loving Him. Pretty big basic for the New Testament. Jesus Himself wasn't "required" to give his life, he did so out of love. That's the whole point. So to say that people outside of religion aren't capable of having morals and values- comes pretty close to saying- if you don't do this- you won't have this- which is a judgement on that person's heart's intent- even religions say you aren't supposed to judge others. Take care of the splinter in your own eye before knocking at the log in mine so to speak.
Being religious is just as internal as "spirituality" as you put it. Being religious doesn't mean you are spiritual either. The "Sunday" worshiper for instance- being spiritual doesn't mean you are religious either. It is just a different way of looking for and practicing the same thing.
A spritual person bases their "belief system" or how they will choose to live, develope their morals and values- on the validity of the information they receive regarding different ways of doing that. That is exactly how people choose to be religious. Same thought processes. You have to look inside your heart and figure out "how" you want to live your life- so it all starts with an internal decision- not external. Where you will see God- is a determination from within your own heart- not where someone tells you he is. Even is someone tells you they see Him somewhere- it is still your "choice" to see him in the same place or not.
Martial Arts don't tell you where God is- they let you look and see for yourself. They don't tell you how or where to worship but prepare you to do so- they make you aware that there is a "spiritual side" to work with. You aren't just a carbon shell. But they don't tell you where to look- only "to" look. There-in lies the difference.
These are my own thoughts on the matter. I would never tell anyone to simply listen to me- and base any opinion on what I have to say about anything. Find and look for yourself. This is simply my own experience. I don't want to offend anyone out there- whom is involved in any religion feeling strongly about it- and there fore feeling threatened by what I say. Don't feel offended or threatened. What I believe or what I think has no bearing on what you should, do, or don't. This is simply an expression.
K
There is a connection between religious worship and martial arts. both intend that you "do something" with your spiritual self. One directs you to worship, in the act of worshiping- you are to react a certian in your daily life- live a certian way... Martial arts helps you determine also how to react durring your daily lives, but it is certianly not moral-less- hence "defense only". It does not however, direct you towards "worshiping". That is altogether a different manner. People can be religious- and practice MA at the same time "because" the "value system" runs paralel to so many. So yeah- there is a connection, but it is not the same thing as a religion.
A person can absolutely be spiritual and aware of their soul's intent without being involved in a religion. Morals and values can be found outside of religion because they are with the bounds of common sense. A good person can be a good person just because they don't want to cause harm to another, knowing that by causing harm to another- it hurts them, the other person, and those around them, simply by seeing it. Those good people wouldn't want that to happen, simply because they are "good people". There are good people within religion also, they are just doing it for a different reason- their focus on life is different.
Even within religion- the main point of all "sermons" etc. is- or should be- the act of free-will. God allows people the choice to worship and recognise Him in their own way- because if He didn't- it wouldn't be true of heart. It would be driven by other reasons, say out of fear, or whatever, not out of simply loving Him. Pretty big basic for the New Testament. Jesus Himself wasn't "required" to give his life, he did so out of love. That's the whole point. So to say that people outside of religion aren't capable of having morals and values- comes pretty close to saying- if you don't do this- you won't have this- which is a judgement on that person's heart's intent- even religions say you aren't supposed to judge others. Take care of the splinter in your own eye before knocking at the log in mine so to speak.
Being religious is just as internal as "spirituality" as you put it. Being religious doesn't mean you are spiritual either. The "Sunday" worshiper for instance- being spiritual doesn't mean you are religious either. It is just a different way of looking for and practicing the same thing.
A spritual person bases their "belief system" or how they will choose to live, develope their morals and values- on the validity of the information they receive regarding different ways of doing that. That is exactly how people choose to be religious. Same thought processes. You have to look inside your heart and figure out "how" you want to live your life- so it all starts with an internal decision- not external. Where you will see God- is a determination from within your own heart- not where someone tells you he is. Even is someone tells you they see Him somewhere- it is still your "choice" to see him in the same place or not.
Martial Arts don't tell you where God is- they let you look and see for yourself. They don't tell you how or where to worship but prepare you to do so- they make you aware that there is a "spiritual side" to work with. You aren't just a carbon shell. But they don't tell you where to look- only "to" look. There-in lies the difference.
These are my own thoughts on the matter. I would never tell anyone to simply listen to me- and base any opinion on what I have to say about anything. Find and look for yourself. This is simply my own experience. I don't want to offend anyone out there- whom is involved in any religion feeling strongly about it- and there fore feeling threatened by what I say. Don't feel offended or threatened. What I believe or what I think has no bearing on what you should, do, or don't. This is simply an expression.
K
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jorvik
Well I guess if you're comparing MA's with religion and spirituality there are lots of good analogies.
Does somebody who can fight naturally need MA's?
does somebody who is spiritual need religion?...is religion a method to gain spirituality as MA's are a method to fight?........and as REG said what of the definitions.....some people don't regard boxing as an MA...they only think of supposedly defensive arts, and definitions of religion and spirituality can vary tremendously.
A brief aside so we don't get too hung up on christianity. Christianity has been doctored, somebody mentioned a conspiracy theory...well there are loads of them in christianity. The first one is the 37 festal letter which basically decreed what you could or could not believe if you were a christian,
Huge swathes of christian thought..termed " Gnostic" was dismissed by the Catholic church. Amongst them the gospel of thomas.
Consider the new testament ...the oldest thing appearing in it are the letters of paul, the Gospels of Mathew ,Mark, Luke and John came about 200 years later.....and Paul had never even met Jesus. The whole New Testament had been given a new geneology to fit the thoughts of the first church elders.
I was quite surprised to find that many Catholics that I spoke with hadn't even read the bible, and when I asked them how many brothers Jesus had many thought that he was an only child! They are a bit blinkered like the people who think that because the yhave mastered a kata they are great streetfighters
Does somebody who can fight naturally need MA's?
does somebody who is spiritual need religion?...is religion a method to gain spirituality as MA's are a method to fight?........and as REG said what of the definitions.....some people don't regard boxing as an MA...they only think of supposedly defensive arts, and definitions of religion and spirituality can vary tremendously.
A brief aside so we don't get too hung up on christianity. Christianity has been doctored, somebody mentioned a conspiracy theory...well there are loads of them in christianity. The first one is the 37 festal letter which basically decreed what you could or could not believe if you were a christian,
Huge swathes of christian thought..termed " Gnostic" was dismissed by the Catholic church. Amongst them the gospel of thomas.
Consider the new testament ...the oldest thing appearing in it are the letters of paul, the Gospels of Mathew ,Mark, Luke and John came about 200 years later.....and Paul had never even met Jesus. The whole New Testament had been given a new geneology to fit the thoughts of the first church elders.
I was quite surprised to find that many Catholics that I spoke with hadn't even read the bible, and when I asked them how many brothers Jesus had many thought that he was an only child! They are a bit blinkered like the people who think that because the yhave mastered a kata they are great streetfighters
smiling- yep- that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about- (and I'm one of those whom doesn't consider boxing to be an MA though it takes a different kind of talent)
YET at the same time- other side of the coin here- not every "lay" person will be as curious as folks such as ourselves. They "need" someone to say this is right this is wrong- do this don't do that- if those people- whom I feel sorry for more than anything- are really trying to do what they feel is right- then cool- let them- until they impose on me- same way with karate- lol- don't force yourself on me or I'll have to hurt you. Literally. Yet in both cases- I aboslutely know without a shread of a doubt that I don't know everything there is to know- I don't have everything perfect, and I constantly need to be willing to learn and grow or else I might miss something vital. If only those leaders of organised religions could think that way- maybe they are missing something vital. maybe- ya never know- at least listen- and learn to think for yourself. Follow your gut on where you think your path should be and then by all means- "do-that". "Do-it".
I liked your post J-
K
YET at the same time- other side of the coin here- not every "lay" person will be as curious as folks such as ourselves. They "need" someone to say this is right this is wrong- do this don't do that- if those people- whom I feel sorry for more than anything- are really trying to do what they feel is right- then cool- let them- until they impose on me- same way with karate- lol- don't force yourself on me or I'll have to hurt you. Literally. Yet in both cases- I aboslutely know without a shread of a doubt that I don't know everything there is to know- I don't have everything perfect, and I constantly need to be willing to learn and grow or else I might miss something vital. If only those leaders of organised religions could think that way- maybe they are missing something vital. maybe- ya never know- at least listen- and learn to think for yourself. Follow your gut on where you think your path should be and then by all means- "do-that". "Do-it".
I liked your post J-
K
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jorvik
kerry
the whole christian thing can get really profound.....it is a mystery religion
, but the whole of life is a mystery religion. We just don' t realise it.....until it's time to go.
I think it's better to question these things while we still have time on earth, than to leave it until our final hour.
the whole christian thing can get really profound.....it is a mystery religion
, but the whole of life is a mystery religion. We just don' t realise it.....until it's time to go.I think it's better to question these things while we still have time on earth, than to leave it until our final hour.
know what you mean- for me- the goal is un-conditional love. That's the main theme of most religions anyway (so they say LOL)- and think about it- can we really comprehend the term as humans? what about tough love? blind love, "loving anyway" through tough times in a marriage- etc.etc. so that's my focus-way I see it- and the reason I really believe in "to each their own" and no judgements- is honestly because of the free-will, and I really trust that if I'm on a wrong path- but am doing it with a pure heart- God's really gonna understand that- no one can take that belief from me. I "judge others" by "not judging"....only God knows what's in another's heart-
"if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice" (Rush 2112 album) "Do what you believe"- excersizing of the soul/spirit See I feel/believe at this point in my understandings of things that "spirit" is a product of, you could say, or linked to, persay- the soul. Our connection to our soul- what keeps it with us while we are alive- is our "spirit".
ya know what makes a "lie" believable? The grain of truth mixed in. You can take a little "truth" weave a great big lie around it- and people will believe it because a) they want to, b) persuasive/manipulative, c) part of the story- situation is actual truth- so the rest of it is more easy to believe.... that's why I say everybody has a piece of the truth. They probably do in reality. It's up to each person to decide which piece they want to focus on, and then do that. That's why I believe as I do. Don't judge- free-will, and un-conditional love-
Jor- you've done a bunch of studying- what other mysteries ya got?
I love this stuff! K
At the risk of proselytizing, have you ever heard the concept that Christianity in its pure, original form, is the exact opposite of a "religion"?
The concept is that religions are man-made constructs of rules, orders, procedures and doctrines which an adherent must follow to (in simple terms) "get to Heaven". The human instinct is to try to "earn your way".
The concept of true Christianity is exactly the opposite.
I won't step across the line to elaborate (betcha Chef knows), but let's just say that a free gift, without you being able to return, is one of the hardest things for a human to accept.
NM
The concept is that religions are man-made constructs of rules, orders, procedures and doctrines which an adherent must follow to (in simple terms) "get to Heaven". The human instinct is to try to "earn your way".
The concept of true Christianity is exactly the opposite.
I won't step across the line to elaborate (betcha Chef knows), but let's just say that a free gift, without you being able to return, is one of the hardest things for a human to accept.
NM
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jorvik
Kerry
I won't labour the point because I might inadvertantly offend some folks.
There is a heck of a lot in Christianity which I find interesting....as an example the " hidden" language( the Green Language) the parable of somebody building a house on sand and someone building a house on stone.........." Stone" in the hidden language would equate to truth..so any referance to stone means truth...and there are lots of other things which have different meanings
...... although you can labour the point a bit far
Then there are other interesting things the way place names develop how the God of a certain place becomes incorporated into a place e.g. Jeru( SALEM).....or consider Moses ( an Egyptian name) but who ever heard of a name like that?....but he would have been called Ra-Moses......like Rameses .......anyway enough of this merry banter.
Two good books written by scholars
"Jesus" by A.E,Wilson and " Testament" by John Romer
Historical, clever and sincere
I won't labour the point because I might inadvertantly offend some folks.
There is a heck of a lot in Christianity which I find interesting....as an example the " hidden" language( the Green Language) the parable of somebody building a house on sand and someone building a house on stone.........." Stone" in the hidden language would equate to truth..so any referance to stone means truth...and there are lots of other things which have different meanings
...... although you can labour the point a bit far Then there are other interesting things the way place names develop how the God of a certain place becomes incorporated into a place e.g. Jeru( SALEM).....or consider Moses ( an Egyptian name) but who ever heard of a name like that?....but he would have been called Ra-Moses......like Rameses
.......anyway enough of this merry banter.Two good books written by scholars
"Jesus" by A.E,Wilson and " Testament" by John Romer
Historical, clever and sincere
For it is by Grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God --
- Ephesians 2.8
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
- Romans 10.9-10
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
-John 14.6
All quotes from the very best book about Christianity... The Holy Bible.
- Ephesians 2.8
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
- Romans 10.9-10
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
-John 14.6
All quotes from the very best book about Christianity... The Holy Bible.
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My God-given Rights are NOT "void where prohibited by law!"
My God-given Rights are NOT "void where prohibited by law!"
KerryM wrote:A person can absolutely be spiritual and aware of their soul's intent without being involved in a religion. Morals and values can be found outside of religion because they are with the bounds of common sense.
It comes down to an unprovable question (but empiricism gives us a strong hint). Is Man's natural state good or evil. If "good", then your above statement is true. If "evil", then morals and values must come from some external place (eg. God). I submit that we are splitting hairs if we debate the "organized" or "denominational" requirements of religion. That's not what I mean. By religion, I mean willingly adhering to a set of codes/rituals/practices that (often despite of and in contrast to our "natural" desires and inclinations) develop and hone a sense of right and wrong.
It might be explained as a sort of delayed-gratification. If I "practice" good money-management/hygiene/homework-habits/manners/etc when I'm young because my parents "make" me do it, then I reap the benefits when I'm an adult because those habits are now part of me. If we practice (through the self-discipline of a martial art) the forms (kata, ritual, practices) of self-defense (some would say "war" or "violence"), we slowly take them on as usable (re)actions in various situations (whether confrontations or everyday life). Similarly if we practice (through the self-discipline of religion) the forms of morality, we slowly take them on as part of ourselves. I believe that (with rare exception), when good "non-religious" people have a strong sense of right and wrong, it is because they inherited it from the "training" they received from their parents when they were young. And so on, and so on. So, despite the fact that they are good and non-religious, their goodness came to them from "religious" ancestors who trained (ie. imposed "religion") on successive generations.
And finally, to clarify... I am not equating "religion" with Christianity. There are many "religions" in the world. And regardless of the failings of mankind, they teach a morality that is imposed from an external force or a set of beliefs handed down from generation to generation.
Take care and be good to yourselves...
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My God-given Rights are NOT "void where prohibited by law!"
My God-given Rights are NOT "void where prohibited by law!"
