Bus "brawl"

[MEaton]

No one CAN show you you're wrong about the bus video because this is a matter of opinion. MY opinion is that if you are MUCH larger than a child you don't hit the kid during an argument except in self defense

you hit it right there self defence 2 trouble making teens serounding a 60 yo man! jumping up in a very aggressive way and being so disruptive that the driver had already had to call the cops on the kids befor the video we have all seen. I call that self defence!!!!

Did the driver make a mistake by geting up after calling for cops? yes but that does NOT excuse the actions if the boys

yes he was "bigger" (an over weight older man!) but teen boys are NOT a weak timmid thing thay created the situation.

This is not opinion these are FACTS shown by both the tape and the word of the boys own aterney!!!

The driver felt in danger by the aggresive nature of the older boy jumping up behind him and cornering him. That is a FACT!

you can argue you may not have felt that way and what you would of done but this isnt up for an "opinion"

The two teens where in no way in fear for there own safty thats you putting your own spin on the situation there is no way 2 teen boys are afrade of oa over weight 60 yo man! Thats proven when the boys kept following him and hitting him after the man stoppd and was trying to get away from them and goying back to the front of the bus!

Teen boys are overly aggressive and very dangerous when not hinderd by respect for others and a fear of consaquenses of there actions. and people like you want to see them get away with it?

The driver said he was scared when the older boy jumped up behind him and he "pushed/slaped" not "HIT" the teen to try to get away from him

the boys "say " thay where but the tape clearly shows thay lie scared people do not jump up and corner the person there "scared" of.

the boys had a histary of probs on the bus and had the cops called on them before.

And by there actions created the situation the resulted in the "hit"

The driver made mistakes and yes was charged. But the Boys didnt just hit in retaleation but contenued to follow him when he tryed to get away from them. and where the ones that started the situation in the first place. And where rightly charged in the first place.

If you cant see that the Boys are at falt in this all then its pointless to go on your stuck on that kneejerk reaction of its wrong to hit "Kids" (teen boys are not "kids")

[IJ]

Re: self defense:
Those were not big kids. They're not helpless, but neither is a 60yr old guy with a huge mass advantage feeding off his rage. THEY had as much to fear. You point out they do not cower, but neither did he, so I do not see the point. I do not see evidence his health was in danger. I do not see a justification for swinging at a kid. Notice that he then moves them around the bus not the other way around.

Lemme give you another story. I was in a psych hospital (as a med student) and I got charged by a psych patient who was bigger and stronger than me. I made a split second decision to do nothing and he yelled in my face and walked away. I COULD have thunked him hard and then we'd have had all sorts of other problems with him, others, lawsuits, injuries, etc. Even if he had tackled me it would've been hard for him to really hurt me; there wasn't back up for the driver BUT he put himself in the middle of the bus, HE let his anger drive his decisions, HE was unlikely to be injured and hadn't even been attacked.

Do you have information about what happened prior to the tape being recorded? Because what I saw was an argument, lots of people, no cool heads. It wasn't clear to me, as you say, that the kids are responsible for the whole mess and that the driver had no reasonable way to avoid striking them.

This is something most kids know: if you are challenged at school to fight in the yard at 3, and you go, and you are attacked without provocation, and you defend yourself YOU ARE responsible for the fight because you made it happen. You BOTH get suspended or they call the police on BOTH. If he put himself in an avoidable situation that lead him to strike a kid, he needs to answer for that. I'm not asking for the death penalty. But it was wrong.

[Panther]

The timeline and prior incidents indicate that these boys had caused problems repeatedly before. The police had been called before. Others, including the attorneys, admit that these boys started trouble on the bus that day. The police were called before the driver went after the boys. Those are givens from the media reports.

However, the ONLY way the driver should have done what he did was if other students were in danger and he was trying to stop them from being harmed... OR if he was in danger and he was defending himself. There is a point of law that EVERY martial artist should know by heart because if the situation arises and you've violated this legal aspect, being hurt by someone is the least of your worries... and that point is that if you knowingly put yourself in harms way, knowingly help create the situation that escalates AND you have no reasonable reason for doing so (defending an innocent person, realizing that you didn't have to defend yourself if you hadn't put yourself in the situation in the first place)... Well then, YOU can and more than likely WILL be held accountable to the point that even if you got the crap beat out of you, you won't get but partial damages because you will be found at least partially at fault for creating the situation!

So... With that in mind and knowing that there were plenty of errors in judgement from both sides... and considering which one was supposedly "the adult" in the situation...

IMNSHO, it would be better to analyze this from a "post-mordem" perspective of what each person should or could have done in the situation than try to argue who was right or wrong. There was plenty of errors and blame to spread on that loaf of bread...

Both of you have made some very valid points. It is obvious that these young thugs have no fear or respect for anyone unless that person has ultimate authority over them. It is also obvious that the bus driver did not use good judgement when he didn't wait for the police and chose to get up, walk into the middle of the lion's den and confront the young cubs. He definitely didn't act like the more mature person. Why? Who knows. Do the young hooligans need to be taught respect? Perhaps. Does the older man need to learn to retreat and let the proper authorities handle the situation? Perhaps. You can second guess all you want, but the kids were charged with a misdemeanor, the older man with felonious assault. The charges against the old man were dropped, the charges against the kids look like they're going to get pled out to something lesser... Seems like an indication of just who the DA's office thought was the cause.

[MEaton]

Re: self defense:

Do you have information about what happened prior to the tape being recorded? Because what I saw was an argument, lots of people, no cool heads. It wasn't clear to me, as you say, that the kids are responsible for the whole mess and that the driver had no reasonable way to avoid striking them.

Yes the aternys for the boys in fact admited on TV that the driver called for the cops. before the "hit" Also that there had been issues before with the Boys.

There was also a follow up vid (a lil longer tape) showing the boys contenuing to attack the driver after he was trying to get away (flee) from them and back to the front of the bus.

Both things pointed out by me earlyer on in this thread

Any person with any comen sence can put this all together and see the boys are clearly at falt and where the agressers in the first place.

And Im sorry 13-15 yo boys aree NOT children thay are as strong or stronger then most adults and far more aggressive due to there higher testosterone levels. And with there lack of respect and no fear of any real consaquenses for there actions are over all a very dangerous age group.

And an overweight 60yo is in no way at any sort of advantage due to his "mass" thats just foolishness.

And again his "hit" wasnt even a real hit but a slap push to try to get the boy away from him.

And if you do not see any justafication to protect yourself form a 15yo that jumps up agressivly behind you. And corners you between him and another. Then you must be to blinded by the whole (hitting kids) thing to see the truth. And I wouldnt advise you to walk around my old naberhood at night. because you dont get a 2nd chance at defending yourself.

I have stated it many time here though that you keep forgeting I admit compleatly the the driver may have made a mistake by goying back there. And he was charged for it.

I have no prob with this id fight it if I was him but thats me.

But that dosnt change the facts that the Boys created the situation the resulted in the "hit" in the first place. And contenued to attack after the driver was trying to get away from them. And should be held accountable for there actions as well.

Thats all I have been saying but people like you are fighting to let them get off with NO punishment at all for it and that will only create even less fear and more disruptive and disrespectfull actions by the boys and any other teens like them that hear just how far you can go and get away with it.

Kids should sit down shut up and do what adults in athoraty tell them like a bus driver. THATS the leasson that thay should learn from all this.

Not that you can disrupt a bus agressivly poster and then hit (even in retaleation) an adult in athoraty. If the Driver went back there for no reason at all and started beating on kids. thay shouldnt even hit then thay should wate and tell oterr adults. Thats how situations like that should be delt but NO CHILD should ever thing he has the right to hit an adult run away yell for help but never hit.

I still say yes he made a mistake goying back there but he was the one who "hit" (again more of a slap push to get the boy away from him) in self defence fearing for his safty. And then was hit a few more times by the boys as he was trying to get away from them.

But the kneejerk reaction by most is to make the driver out to be some sort of monster that is goyig back and hitting kids for no reason. and the boys out be be helpless victoms. And thats just wrong in most cases.

We as a people need to stop this as soon as we can. We need to start taking responsabilaty for our actions and stop blaiming others. The boys where the agressers for start to the end regardless of the mistakes the driver made and the Boys should be held acountable for it ALL!!!

If thay just sat there and did what the driver asked them the situation would of NEVER HAPPEND! The Boys are at falt plain and simple. And I cant see how it could be argued any other way (without a libral bias that clouds the facts of the situation)

You got to ask your self if it was a bunch of Adults disrupting a "bus" lets say and the bus driver whent back to get theme to settle down and one of the adults jumped up behind the driver in an agressive way and yelling Would the driver be at falt for hitting the adult to try to get away from him?

Why is it you think Kids should be able to get away with things like this just because there kids? Thats the wrong message to send out.

[Panther]

OK... Enough!

Chill out already.

IJ has his valid points and you have yours...

Now please read the rules and calm down. I agree with some of what both of you have said and disagree with some of the things both of you have said.

There are problems with respect in the rebellious teenage crowd.
The driver made mistakes. The teenagers caused the situation.
I don't see any angels in the situation at all...

But I know of situations where kids lived in abusive homes, reported that abuse to an adult (a guidance counsellor at school) and the guidance counsellor happened to be "buddies" with the abusive father! Guess what... the kids got a good beating that weekend. When they went back to the guidance counsellor the next week with bruising, they were told that they shouldn't get their father so upset and that they should NEVER hit back at an adult.

WRONG. They need to run and get away, but they have every right to defend themselves from an abusive adult. The Right of self-defense isn't reserved to certain age groups.

Enough of that...

I'm closing this thread. Please read the rules and keep it civil...