Seisan Bunkai takedown???

[Van Canna]

Correct, George.

Grappling is serious business and must be approached seriuosly with serious qualified teachers.

I don't disagree that there is some grappling potential in Uechi, but to learn those 'hidden' concepts we need specialized trainers, just as we need specialized force on force specialists such as Dave Young.

Why is it that Kanei Uechi and or the other masters never did get into grappling in their classes?

Playing at grappling will cause serious injuries even in the 'tough guys' even as they deny it.

[f.Channell]

I like this Uechi guy.

Takes as good as he gives and his "takedown" is a nice spin kick to the head.

Great display of conditioning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nePj6Akd3W0

F.

[Bill Glasheen]

Let me break you out of the boxes you guys are thinking in, if I may.

I'm holding my ground on this one, guys. I've seen it done. Two styles that pull this off and have become "coherent" systems are myo sim (I saw taught at UVa) and hapkido. For whatever reason, both styles have Korean heritage.

In myo sim karate, they have striking days and grappling days. When doing their kata, they work out on the wooden floors. When doing their grappling, they work out on the mats. Their karate looks somewhat shotokan-ish, and their grappling looks like judo.

Hapkido has no kata. But they also have striking and grappling. Their grappling in my view looks a bit more like traditional jiujitsu.

A former instructor I trained with taught Goju and aikido. We had hard floor days and mat days. And unlike the two styles mentioned above, our "randori" (sparring) in aikido was sometimes 2-on-1 and 3-on-1.

Do people get hurt? It can happen... With crappy mats you get broken toes (caught in the seams) and separated shoulders (from substandard mats). Otherwise I didn't see any more injuries in the grappling than I saw in the striking.

Today we've got Joey Pomfret and Mike Murphy who have set up their dojos so they can do both.

The thing people need to get out of their heads is this idea that one exercise, drill, or freeform format is going to be the be-all, end-all of martial arts. Such an entity doesn't exist.

What the hell does our sparring on a Uechi black belt test show anyway? It shows something... It's basically sport karate. <shrug> It never should be made to show it all, because it can't without causing injury. It's the nature of the beast.

Even in the MMA fighting formats, the equipment you choose can cause restrictions in what you can and cannot do in the ring.

What would it take to require ukemi at all dan tests where kotekitae is done? Will we suddenly be teaching diluted Uechi? Will we f*** it up any more than the next guy?

Trying to convince a biomedical engineer that a cross-disciplinary field isn't possible is a losing proposition. For a generation people said it couldn't be done. Go get a PhD in a "real" engineering field and then go get an MD. BMEs can't possibly get their arms around all this material. Tell that to the people giving out the diplomas these days. Tell that to my employer who is happy to have hired a guy who can speak the languages of both the techies and the medical folk.

Meanwhile... You have folks such as TSDguy saying he's giving up on this traditional martial arts school stuff and is going to do some MMA. Say what? Didn't we just have a couple of people in this thread who said it couldn't be done?

Hold on to dead paradigms, and you'll die with them.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Takes as good as he gives and his "takedown" is a nice spin kick to the head.

Good match for sure. The irony of it is that what ‘wins’ the match is a non Uechi kick, but a TKD/TSD type of kick_ and more importantly_ it shows an inability of the Uechi fighter to deal/block that wheel kick. A problem we, as fighters of the 60’s 70’s, had to overcome by sheer willpower.

All that good leg kicking_ all for nothing_ it stopped nobody. But the kick to the head did.

Again it shows the inability of many Uechi people to protect their heads.

Much specialized work is needed, like getting in the ring with fighters from kicking styles, as we did.

Bill,

I agree with you totally. But when taking judo I saw some frightening injuries [shoulder separations/dislocations/sprains/back injuries etc.]

Ukemi is a great thing to know _ but even as taught by a good teacher that knows what he is doing, it can result in injuries even on ‘good mats’ _ to some people.

And here, the other question is whether the insurance company will cover such activities.

Then there are some people, who by their physical make up _ age / pre-existing conditions _cannot or will not get into falls/Ukemi/grappling applications etc.

In fact this can loose a teacher some students.

So I am not against that_ but I think that for safety sake we need to ‘import’ a specialist to put the Uechi student in touch with the ‘hidden Uechi grapple’ _

If there is a serious injury and there will be_ and legal action is filed_ then the Uechi teacher can look like the reasonable person by having imported the specialist to teach such things.

Again, if all this grapple is in Uechi, and I know there is some, why is it that neither Kanei nor other masters on the Island, have ever shown any of it to anyone, or demonstrated such knowledge?

I’d like to hear on this by anyone.

[M J Brelsford]

Van,

FWIW, we did grappling at Futenma and Naha, with both Kanei and Nakahodo, and I have also trained in it with teachers like Shurado, Senaga, and Kinjo.

Did lots of training with Hokama sensei of Goju Ryu, also. A combination of grappling, te and kyusho.

Mark

[f.Channell]

No dead paradigm here.

I'll be in Judo or Iaido tomorrow night.


Can't decide yet which.

Coin toss I guess.

F.

[M J Brelsford]

Van,

Like to add...

Again, I think the lack of grappling training that you speak of that has not been seen by most Uechi folks by and from Okinawa is again a prime example of what I have always said about the depth of knowledge, or lack of, from various teachers.

This knowledge is very much present in many dojo's if folks spend time to learn it.

Mark

[Van Canna]

Mark,

Thanks for the information about the grappling.

But if those grappling skills are not taught mainstream or shown _ then current students will not be motivated to learn, and students of generations to come will be deprived of something very useful.

We see kata performance of the masters, it would be very motivating to see how the teach/taught grappling in a safe manner and to whom and why.

[M J Brelsford]

Van,

As I have said before, I believe it is a matter of being “accepted” by the various Okinawan teachers. I was lucky, I have a strong reputation and standing among the various seniors of Uechi as well as other styles. I had to prove my worth and desire to learn and train to be accepted, it was not an overnight thing.

When I started training with Master Nakahodo, as a godan, many more opportunities and knowledge was open to me. Then as a rokudan, even more was explained. Again I believe so because of my standing within Uechi. Sadly, many folks do not stay on Okinawa long enough. Others visit yet most of that time is spent just trying to get them to understand simple concepts never mind anything more and remember how I said many even refused that, stating “they already new all that”.

Mark

[Van Canna]

Mark,

I agree with your take on the arrogance of _ “they already new all that”_ crowd. But then again we must remember that there is a language barrier and some of these people may not quite grasp the significance of what is being said.

Not to say that many visitors do not in fact display a certain arrogant behavior. They certainly do.

Now, I take it that you speak Japanese, so for you that problem is solved.

As to the length of stay in Okinawa _ long stays are not always possible for visitors as they have jobs and families and economic demands back home.

So even as they have a strong desire to learn, it is not possible for them to stay too long in Okinawa.

It would seem to me that the Okinawan seniors would make allowances for this in their teaching knowing the difficulties facing these travelers.

Nevertheless I firmly believe that if Kanei Uechi practiced, taught, and felt that the grappling component of Uechi was a critical skill to learn_ then this skill should have been demonstrated or brought to the attention of the Uechi world at large, should have been filmed just as his katas were, with guidelines to follow for learning.

For example, why don’t we see grappling skills demonstrated in the Okinawa /Uechi DVD being sold?

During all the times that Kanei Uechi and other seniors visited the states, we never saw a grappling demonstration. I think it would have been productive to demonstrate such skills so as to motivate the learning process.

We have Joe Pomfret, a formidable Uechi striker going to BJJ, a fantastic art, then enter MMA contests and win on the strike and on the grapple_ KOs and submissions.

If he had heard of Uechi grappling skills that he could have learned to augment his striking skills to enter and win the demanding MMA matches, I am sure he would have sought them out.

If this ‘hidden’ stuff is not brought to light and given a chance to see how effective it really is against worthy opponents, then our students will not be motivated to learn.

Many of us would love to see a seriously skilled Uechi grappler, with such skills totally flowing from Uechi Ryu, enter the type of MMA contest that Pomfret fights, to show their effectiveness.

These things should not be only talked about _ they should be seen and demonstrated in competition, just as Uechi striking skills are proven in tournament play in Okinawa or in the states open tourneys.

Another great way to promote our beloved style and insure dedicated, committed, and skilled future generations.

[Stryke]

Skills in all ranges are important

and possible , and in Uechi .

let the politicians squabble about the tests , and the doers train and improve .

and those that cant , well they cant can they .

cross training is the mark of any good stylist IMHO

[AAAhmed46]

Mark,

I agree with your take on the arrogance of _ “they already new all that”_ crowd. But then again we must remember that there is a language barrier and some of these people may not quite grasp the significance of what is being said.

Not to say that many visitors do not in fact display a certain arrogant behavior. They certainly do.

Now, I take it that you speak Japanese, so for you that problem is solved.

As to the length of stay in Okinawa _ long stays are not always possible for visitors as they have jobs and families and economic demands back home.

So even as they have a strong desire to learn, it is not possible for them to stay too long in Okinawa.

It would seem to me that the Okinawan seniors would make allowances for this in their teaching knowing the difficulties facing these travelers.

Nevertheless I firmly believe that if Kanei Uechi practiced, taught, and felt that the grappling component of Uechi was a critical skill to learn_ then this skill should have been demonstrated or brought to the attention of the Uechi world at large, should have been filmed just as his katas were, with guidelines to follow for learning.

For example, why don’t we see grappling skills demonstrated in the Okinawa /Uechi DVD being sold?

During all the times that Kanei Uechi and other seniors visited the states, we never saw a grappling demonstration. I think it would have been productive to demonstrate such skills so as to motivate the learning process.

We have Joe Pomfret, a formidable Uechi striker going to BJJ, a fantastic art, then enter MMA contests and win on the strike and on the grapple_ KOs and submissions.

If he had heard of Uechi grappling skills that he could have learned to augment his striking skills to enter and win the demanding MMA matches, I am sure he would have sought them out.

If this ‘hidden’ stuff is not brought to light and given a chance to see how effective it really is against worthy opponents, then our students will not be motivated to learn.

Many of us would love to see a seriously skilled Uechi grappler, with such skills totally flowing from Uechi Ryu, enter the type of MMA contest that Pomfret fights, to show their effectiveness.

These things should not be only talked about _ they should be seen and demonstrated in competition, just as Uechi striking skills are proven in tournament play in Okinawa or in the states open tourneys.

Another great way to promote our beloved style and insure dedicated, committed, and skilled future generations.

I think there is 'hidden' take downs and grapples in uechi-ryu forms, alot in fact.

But we are first and foremost strikers.

I think it would be foolish to think a pure uechika could have better take downs then a chin-na or judo expert.

And who cares if we are not as good at take downs? Thats thier playground. Our way is to pound, and take the takedown if availalble, if not, pound away.

Is there anything wrong with that?

[Stryke]

I think there is 'hidden' take downs and grapples in uechi-ryu forms, alot in fact.

But we are first and foremost strikers.

I think it would be foolish to think a pure uechika could have better take downs then a chin-na or judo expert.

And who cares if we are not as good at take downs? Thats thier playground. Our way is to pound, and take the takedown if availalble, if not, pound away.

Is there anything wrong with that?

I beleive this is a modern phenomenom , Uechi is very clearly seizing and impacting oreinted , but the circular stepping , the co-ordination of both arms in movement , the fluidity and focus on base etc . Seizing is grappling !!!

I think it`s more a case of nurture over nature , in the end youll be good at how you train

outcome dictates method .

It`s only ever hidden if you dont understand it .

I suspect if the grappling side of Uechi was tested for dan grades and sports fighting wasnt that folks would get very good at takedowns all of a sudden .

and theyed sure find the folks to help them learn it .

heck maybe someone could persuade Mark to teach a class On Uechi grappling/takedowns at summer camp . Or take road trip to see him .

I know some canadian guys big On Uechi grappling , folks can find it if they want it .

[AAAhmed46]

I think grappling is a large part of my skill set from WKS, most of it is chin-na.

[Van Canna]

I think there is 'hidden' take downs and grapples in Uechi Ryu forms, a lot in fact.

But we are first and foremost strikers.

I think it would be foolish to think a pure uechi ka could have better take downs then a chin-na or judo expert.

And who cares if we are not as good at take downs? Thats thier playground. Our way is to pound, and take the takedown if availalble, if not, pound away.

Is there anything wrong with that?

I agree_ there is a lot of grappling potential in the moves of Uechi.

Also to remember is that seizing and taking down is only ‘basic grappling’_

When you take down an opponent your fight might just be in its beginning stage.

The man you have taken down will continue to fight you and you must make him ‘submit’ with your grappling moves on the ground as well as striking.

Also to keep in mind is that Uechi-ka, regardless of how tough they think they are, can/will be taken down in a real fight especially if tackled by multiple opponents.

Knowing how to survive when down and possibly ‘stunned’ is a critical aspect of self defense.

The reason why serious students of self defense cross train in arts such as BJJ or Judo. It makes sense. Those arts SPECIALIZE in the grapple standing or on the ground.

Is the ‘hidden’ in Uechi just as good as BJJ or Judo? Does a Uechi-ka need to cross train in BJJ/Judo?

Possibly not, due to the fact the grapple is ‘hidden’ in Uechi_

If so, then Uechi students should be _ should have been exposed to it by the master instructors_ early on in their training, and not wait to achieve high rank and then ‘be invited’ to join a select group in order to learn it.

Because, in doing so the general Uechi populous at large will mostly develop devoid of these skills, which affects the general reputation of Uechi Ryu for generations to come.

It would be helpful if we could have seen or see today _ Okinawan masters showing their skills in grappling as flowing from Uechi Ryu, even in videos.

We see videos of masters doing kata but not grappling moves_ the question is why?

You all know it would help immensely to motivate interest.


Say you are a Uechi-ka who is strong enough and willing enough to enter the tough MMA competition scene, such as a Joe Pomfret.

If the grappling skills you need to get you there are within Uechi_ why then should you have to go to BJJ?

I have watched all of Joe’s fights at ringside_ I recommend all of you to buy a ticket to a good MMA fight and observe what it takes to survive it.

Why is it that you never knew, never saw, those skills demonstrated by master Uechi or master instructors from Okinawa?

I am not saying they don’t exist_ I am saying why not educate a student at the inception of his training, so that the skills embed/program deeply at a younger/stronger age instead of having to wait until you are much older at a higher Dan rank?

Makes sense to me.