Seisan Bunkai takedown???

[Bill Glasheen]

Wonderful discussion, gentlemen. Thanks for all the contributions.

Nevertheless I firmly believe that if Kanei Uechi practiced, taught, and felt that the grappling component of Uechi was a critical skill to learn_ then this skill should have been demonstrated or brought to the attention of the Uechi world at large, should have been filmed just as his katas were, with guidelines to follow for learning.

Thankfully Mark came on board to let us know that the possibilities and the practice were there all along.

As for "official Uechi Ryu", well...

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise; seek what they sought.

- Baslo

When I think about all the great martial artists who inspired me, this is what they were about.

Kanbun learned what he learned. He was in China for a little over a decade, and then went on his own.

His son added what he wanted to the core material. He systematized a body of knowledge, fleshing out and packaging what he could. But he was just a single man.

My time with Patrick McCarthy has been very enlightening. It's fun working with someone like him on Okinawan kata bunkai. You want grappling? It's all there.

Do we practice it in our "sparring"? No. So whose fault is that? Is it the fault of the choreography where the principles of human movement are there for the taking? I think not.

"Uechi Ryu" is the packaging and commercialization of a body of knowledge. Whenever you try to pass something on, some things get lost.

To most... But not to all.

It's obvious from the comments graciously given by Mark that the Okinawans were working on their grappling skills all along. Did they have time to "package" that work into something that could be turned into a test requirement? Apparently not. Not yet, anyway...

And you know how it is with the average American. If it isn't on the test, they don't give a rat's arse. Those of us who went to undergraduate to learn were constantly annoyed by the questions of those who wanted a degree.

..... Is this going to be on the test?

..... Why are you teaching this when I won't need it for my job?



There are practical considerations as well.

Do you think Kanei's training might have been different in Futenma if the dojo had a $10K mat in the back, ready to be rolled out when they needed it?

IMO, the wooden floor is somewhat of a style Nazi for Uechi Ryu. Most don't practice certain aspects of the style for fear of injury. So "it" becomes what people can safely practice under the conditions they train in.

Meanwhile...

Gary Khoury and Mike Murphy teach in dojos where you can do a fall no problem. Both have "mat-like" floors.

The folks in Nebraska teach on a spring-loaded gymnastics routine floor. Ever wonder how those pixies can do all those dives and rolls? That floor is fabulous.

But EXPEN$IVE!!!

Many of the first generation Uechikas in this country taught where they could, when they could. It was a rented room over a restaurant, or a YMCA gymnasium, or a dance studio, or... or...

Where grappling is "what you do" (wrestling, jiujitsu, judo, aikido), you think about a mat on day 1 - or go home.

The wooden floor is a style Nazi. Today...

Ukemi is a great thing to know _ but even as taught by a good teacher that knows what he is doing, it can result in injuries even on ‘good mats’ _ to some people.

And here, the other question is whether the insurance company will cover such activities.

Excellent points - as always.

There's a reason I test for ukemi at the same time we test for kotekitae, ashikitae, and karadakitae. Think about this for a minute. We go to an insurance company asking for a policy.

Insurer: What do you want insurance for?

Teacher: Teaching karate

Insurer: What do you do in your classes?

Teacher: We do exercises, kata, kotekitae, and sparring.

Insurer: Uh... What's kotekitae?

Teacher: We pound on each others arms. We do that on the legs as well.

Insurer:

But really... What's all this for, anyhow? We pound arms to prevent bruises and broken bones. We teach ukemi to prevent separated shoulders, concussions, broken necks, and other assorted injuries. What's not to like about that?

I have told countless beginners' classes that the ukemi I will teach them is probably the single most useful thing they will get out of their martial arts experiences. And I have far more people coming back to me with "stories" about how they avoided a bad fall than I get stories about conquests against bad guys on the street.

Insurers should LOVE training that prevents injuries.

Ukemi is evidence-based training. It's generations old.

Insurers know that every high school kid has an opportunity to wrestle. They know they'll fall down and get thrown down in this activity. Grappling is no big deal. Grappling is part of our culture.

People get hurt. We need to accept that and get over it. What is irresponsible - IMO - is avoiding teaching things which PREVENT injuries.

So I am not against that_ but I think that for safety sake we need to ‘import’ a specialist to put the Uechi student in touch with the ‘hidden Uechi grapple’ _

What do "specialists" know that we can't figure out?????

FWIW... I first learned ukemi from Harry Cook - a judo teacher at UVa. He came in and gave a 1 hour seminar. I took everything he taught and made a program of it. I honed the program with years of practicing and teaching aikido.

I have no certificate which says I know ukemi. But IMO, anyone who is a Dan SHOULD know ukemi. In martial arts, it's state of the art. It's evidence-based. It's what good martial artists do. It's what any karate teacher who claims to be a teacher should know how to do.

In my humble view, it's the Uechi stragglers who should be getting the lawsuits when their students slip and fall, and hurt themselves. If they haven't at least made an effort to teach ukemki, then I call that negligence.

So with nothing more than a 1 hour class plus some experience, I have taught ukemi to over 2000 students. And I haven't had a single serious injury in any of my ukemi classes. That's data you can bring to court.

Quite the contrary, I believe I prevented many injuries.

Then there are some people, who by their physical make up _ age / pre-existing conditions _cannot or will not get into falls/Ukemi/grappling applications etc.

In fact this can loose a teacher some students.

I challenge people to show me they have students more frail than the retired who come to work out with me these days.

I demand people tell me their preexisting conditions. Once we know that, we work with what we have.

We come to a dojo to learn karate. If your doctor says you shouldn't be doing karate, you shouldn't be in the dojo. Meanwhile... Trying to dumb down what we do to the level of the infirmed drives away decent students and prevents us from performing an important public service.

Today I'm taking it a step farther. I am slowly developing ukemi routines that people can do on a wooden floor without a mat. Why? Because the bad guy won't care you aren't on a mat. Because people slip on sweat and fall in the dojo. (I've seen broken wrists from people who threw a front kick, missed and slipped, and stuck a hand out.) My retired boys are my lab rats. And I haven't broken any of them yet.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Good post Bill.

However

What do "specialists" know that we can't figure out?????

They know a lot 'situation specific' physical dynamics that have been proven in real life.

Like the Lethal force 'specialists' _

You bring a BJJ specialist into your dojo, and the stuff you are trying to figure out, will 'figure', faster and safer.

Speaking as a National casualty general adjuster and trial prep investigator, I can tell you that a plaintiff's attorney would love to put you on the stand and make the statement that you were trying to figure things out when the plaintiff broke his back.

You will not come across as a 'reasonable prudent martial arts teacher' as much as one would hope. Take my word for it. I speak from very long experience in catastrophic injuries.

[Bill Glasheen]

And the defense can call me as a witness. I have the data to back up my assertions. Teaching ukemi to 2000 people with no serious injuries.

What drug manufacturer can make a similar cost/benefit claim?

With my experience, why am I not an "expert?" Please define.

An expert is someone from out of town with slides.

- J Lawrence Colley, MD


And what's to stop people from getting sued for NOT teaching ukemi as a karate Dan? People slip and fall on sweaty floors all the time. Wrist get broken. Lawsuits happen. And guess whom those seeking damages could call as an expert witness to back their assertions??

Possession of a lawyer is nine tenths of the law.

- Unknown


- Bill

[Josann]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGIHXVeL24o

Don't know if this has been posted before. About four minutes into this video Mr. Shinjo shows some prearranged stuff with takedowns. Interested to see what people think about these techniques.

[Glenn]

Many of the first generation Uechikas in this country taught where they could, when they could. It was a rented room over a restaurant, or a YMCA gymnasium, or a dance studio, or... or...

You don't have to go back that far, even today you can find some small clubs that meet and train wherever they can.

When I was in college in the 1980s, and between Uechi dojo, I joined a university kung fu club for a while. In the summer we worked out in a grassy area, but in winter or if the the weather was bad we met in the ROTC garage and worked out on the concrete floor. We still worked on falls and takedowns (with control) on that floor. Of course being the typical young, dumb, and indistructable college male, and not knowing anything different, I don't recall ever giving much thought to the fact that we were doing this on such a hard surface.

The folks in Nebraska teach on a spring-loaded gymnastics routine floor. Ever wonder how those pixies can do all those dives and rolls? That floor is fabulous.

I hope you are referring to the gymnists as pixies, and not us folks in Nebraska!

[M J Brelsford]

I agree with Bill, grappling is in all Okinawan arts; I spent a few nights with Patrick at the Naha Seaman’s Club, and a few beers, talking this matter over. Tegumi is part of the martial arts and culture of Okinawa. Patrick has made several tapes on the subject.

I have spent my time in the ring at many a summer beach party with my fellow students from Futenma throwing each other around the sand!

With all this said, remember Okinawan grappling is not BJJ, or what one watches in the UFC, keep that in mind.

Van, again you pose the question why it was not shown, again I say perhaps they felt folks were not ready for it, to many dojo’s it is not a big deal, just another part of the whole picture. It seems when most Okinawans come over or teach, they really only ever touch on basic/general information. Remember they are dealing with the “masses”, not one on one. Most if not all seminars I have attended sponsoring Okinawans, including Gushi sensei, do not encompass much really advanced information.

Perhaps they see things that are needed and see that most are not ready for more info, just a thought

Mark

[mhosea]

Tegumi is part of the martial arts and culture of Okinawa.

Do Okinawans learn Tegumi formally, or do they learn it by growing up Okinawan? I thought it was more of the latter, which to my thinking would explain everything.

[Van Canna]

Bill,

No problem, we are basically on the same page.
As you are aware, you don’t have to sell me or anyone in the choir_

You must be able to sell it to a trier of facts and a jury of your peers. That is where 'overkill' is critical_

Have you ever been deposed and or ‘interrogated’ by world class plaintiff’s attorney on the witness stand? It is an experience I don’t wish on anyone.

By the time they are done, they’ll have you convinced you are still 21 and single.

~~

And Bill,

You recall the special training and video tape I believe that George had Joe Pomfret do to be absorbed and worked on by Uechi Dan Ranks? Why was that done?

~~

Mark,

I am not questioning the grappling aspect of the Okinawan arts.

And about ‘being ready’ _ there has to be a way to make people ready earlier than later as Uechi is a style that attracts people for self defense reasons and grappling skills standing and on the ground are very much a necessity for self defense.

A good teacher will find ways to ‘get ready’ sooner than later.

My thought is that if students were shown, given demonstrations of this advanced stuff, by the master teachers, then there would be motivation to study harder, get better so as to reach that point faster.

As I said it would be helpful to see such skills demonstrated on tape as we see kata/kumite/etc._

Why we don’t is something many people ask.

Most if not all seminars I have attended sponsoring Okinawans, including Gushi sensei, do not encompass much really advanced information.

Not sure if I understand that completely, but it begs the question why wouldn’t these seniors encompass these information/skills?

Certainly at their level and most as students of Kanei sensei, surely they must have been ready to learn such advanced knowledge at some point in their training lives. Why did they not?

With all this said, remember Okinawan grappling is not BJJ, or what one watches in the UFC, keep that in mind.

We have had these discussions before with UFC type people.

To remember is that the UFC fighters are bound by rules and that is what we see in the ring.

If they were to use their skills in real fights they would handle an opponent much differently. They can do some really nasty stuff, as Joe Pomfret once showed me, if they need to. And their ‘weaponry’ is superb.

We should get Joe Pomfret in on these debates.

Again, it would help these discussions if we could see these Okinawan skills or even read a description of what they are and how they differ from BJJ, as an example.

Good discussion.










~~

[Stryke]

As a crazy thought , why would you need to put grappling into the test requirements to encourage it .

maybe just maybe , take sport sparring , and sport drills out of the testing and put the focus back on individuals to demonstrate there version of the ryu .

commendable discussion all around , nothing wrong with specialists , from within and without to asist though .

[Stryke]

so who do I have to bribe to get information on there takedown/throws for Uechi ryu ?

[AAAhmed46]

I think it would be great to see more stand up grappling, done in an alive manner in uechi-ryu.

I think that would greatly improve uechi-ryu's reputation and make the practitioners better martial artists.

But i hope this doesn't give many uechika the illusion that they have better take downs then Dr.Kano or better submissions then Genki Sudo.

We strike, first and foremost, we stand.

[Stryke]

Adam you getting into the style vs style guff

it`s what you train you get good at .

you focus on thows exclusively , give it fifty years youll be a judo school of sorts .

a throws a throw a punch is a punch .

[gmattson]

We have two fantastic dvd by Joe Pomfret that every uechi-ka should own. I've promoted the dvd extensively and sold less than a dozen copies.

No question that Joe's dvds are the best anywhere. If someone really wanted to study grappling for stand-up martial artist, his first course is for you.

His second dvd is an actual grappling formal series of exercises he created to make teaching takedowns and submissions easy to understand and remember.

[Stryke]

hey George , those are the only dvd`s Ive brought of you , guess the heretics are a large percentage of the 12 buyers .

I did have problems with it though , and it only played about a half dozen times . But thats just bad luck I do recommend the disks for the inexpereinced grappler

I was just hoping some of the folks who are so keen at the moment would show what they`re doing .

would gladly purchase uechi specific grappling material . But surely folks wouldnt be afraid to share a few little tricks for free ?

why does this stuff have to be secret ? , Laird and Rick have posted many throws from uechi , lets get this thread going in the right direction and do it not talk about it .

Van started it with the judo throws he loves , Bill and Mark both said they have examples , George I`m sure youve a trick or two to share with all your experience .

lets get it out there .

[Stryke]

I`d recomend Tim Cartmells book Effortless combat throws as a pretty good starting point , not contradictory to uechi mechanics IMHO .