Marine Martial Arts in Black Belt Magazine

[Raffi Derderian]

Hi all,
I just wanted to know if anyone read the article about the MMA in this months BB mag. Particularly interested if Rich Sensei has any input here.
Raf

[RACastanet]

Hi Raffi. I will need to seek that article out so I can comment on it.

There was a 2 day knife seminar at Quantico last week by a group from Califormia. I was not invited but was told today I will be in the future.

Did something really wild today... The MMA group put in a bayonet training course and I ran it today with the real deal attached. Lots of mud, dirt, hills and obstacles (including barbed wire crawls, hurdles surrounded by concertina wire) over a 300 yard course. The 'enemy' was a number of stacks of tires placed high and low.

It takes a mighty lunge to penetrate a steel belted radial. When done correctly there is a satisfying ripping sound. When done incorrectly you bounce of with a thud for all to hear. Great practice. Great fun.

Rich

[Kroh]

Hey there ...just wanted to put in my penny on this...
I used to be in the Army and unfortunately, they seem to put minor importance on the use of the bayonet. While the training that we received was a lot of fun... When one got to a unit and began a regular work schedual ( if there is such a thing in the armed services), bayonet and knife training in general pulled down a very minor place in what a soldier learned ( especially in a non combative roll). One of my bosses used to say that there was really no need to spend mass amounts of time drilling knife and bayonet courses... If you were down to those weapons, you were screwed anyway.
When the units I was in did train with these tools, they always used the "keep it simple" rule. The training was always straight forward and easy to learn. Usually boring. But, we all know the old addage, that if you don't like the way that something works, work yourself into a position to change it.
When i did get into a position of authority, i maintained the keep it simple rule but i tried to make things a bit more interesting. Poke dummies and minor courses ( nothing like i bet the Marines have, but hey...you work with what you can get). The Marine course that you described sounds like fun though....

Night mission to sneak in and try it out....ok... Who's with me???

Thanks for the minute
WalT

[RACastanet]

Hi Walt. Yep, the USMC is heavily investing in training our Marines in close combat techniques. From what I hear, there were several instances of orders given to fix bayonets during the war in Iraq.

For day to day training they are using wooden, blunt tipped trainers about the length of an M16 with a bayonet attached. Occasionally, with flak jackets and the pugil stick helmits on, you get to mix it up.

I'm a freshly minted green belt in the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (as of 0900 this morning) and we used the M16s without blades as part of the test. At the brown belt level and up they train for 2 on 1, 1 on 2 and 2 on 2 encounters.

Raffi: The more advanced I get in the training the more it looks like what you do... strong side forward. For knife versus empty hand, keep the knife back with the strong side. For knife or other weapon vs weapon, it is strong side forward.

Rich

[Kroh]

Rich,
Congradulations on the new rank . Sounds like a tough course... and then there's mud AND barbed wire... Ahhhh...memories.....BOOOOM !!!

That sounds really cool the way that USMC is training these tactics. I can also see why they are training this way now. As the "modern battlefield moves out of the woods and into urban areas.... the need for stealthy, close conflict resolution techniques becomes increasingly critical. If a guy walks around the corner into your bayonet... That is one more round of ammunition you can spend later.

Do the Marines practice a "sogobudo" or total warrior enviornment in their training? Do they train for situations can flow from gun to fist to knife to bayonet or in and out of any of these situations. Do they leave the application of specifics up to the Marine or do they train one situation at a time and show the individual how to later link them together to address certain combat scenarios? An example of what I am asking could go like this:
A marine and his date walk into a bar....
Woops....Wrong one.....

Example:Course teaches one technique at a time vs. showing the Marine how to use the techniques that he has learned by simulating an urban fight, bar fight, fight in three feet of swamp water ( using props, CQB simulator rooms, ets...)

Thanx for the minute...
WalT

[RACastanet]

Hello again Walt. For a quick answer, just look at the Marine Corps Martial Arts Logo that I use as my icon.

The techniques are taught individually and the level of complexity increases as one progresses through the system. Every Marine must have the basic 'tan' belt level of instruction. All recruits and all new officers now go through a block training course up front.

It would apear that any Marine hoping to rise through the ranks will continue on with the training. Even 50+ year old generals are taking at least the tan level of training. On occasion, today in fact, I train with a 48 year old Colonel hoping to test for his gray belt on Thursday. Also, a 47 year old LtCol is working on his black belt and plans to take command of the program in August. He is one tough Marine.

Infantry officers must at some point achieve the green belt level. That is the only specialty that I know of that requires a belt level above tan.

The instructors and trainers really mix it up. Even the green belt instructors must go through 3 weeks of serious hell to add that title. Black belt instructors go through 7 weeks of hell. Tests include the ability to teach others but also include really bizarre stuff in dark, windowless rooms full of aggressors, lots of pepper spray and my favorite, the 'Last of the Mohicans' run. This is a 2.8 mile run through the woods and nasty terrain in 'boots and utes'. Near the end you are well sprayed with military pepper spray and must finish the final several hundred yards through a gauntlet of trainers waiting in ambush.

I have done the run but not the final fights or pepper spray. That is a challenge designed for young men and women. I would probably survive but ... So no instructor rating for me.

I may give the brown belt a shot if my back holds up but that is a big 'if'.

Rich

[Halford]

Bayonet training was more evident when heavier rifles were used, like the M-1 and usually minimal practice with both thrusting, parrying, and disarming(empty-hand). Very little was done against dummies beyond doing a few thrusts,etc. Fixing bayonets was also something that took place when you emerged from foxholes after being bombarded and strafed in basic. Anyway, we've all heard the story of soldiers killed when they ran out of ammo and the enemy came to them and clubbed them to death,etc. Supposedly these men were helpless and did not know how to use the rifles,etc. to fight with as clubs,etc. Also, the use of knives,etc. seemed to be somewhat lacking. I can also recall using the trenching tool as a weapon,etc. but who carries these these days? You can still find manuals on bayonet training,etc. and some videos. Halford at http://arnis.homestead.com