Why do we lose students from our dojos?

chef · Post by **chef** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:34 pm

I originally started Uechi in spring of 1981, trained for 6 years, took a 9 year hiatus, and started back again, almost 11 years ago. In each dojo, the turn over has always been amazing to me.

People come, stay a little while (3-6 months for most), and then leave....with very few women.

Why is that?

Is it lack to dedication, lack of endurance and ability, lack of motivation, lack of money, dissatisfaction with the instruction, or family matters?

I know some go in to spar and show their stuff. I look at the sheer raw ability and physical gifting and just shake my head.

Why can't we keep these people? Is it our problem or theirs? Is there something we can do to avoid this?

If you have been in a dojo and left, what was the reason?

Give me some feedback.

Vicki

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:15 pm

This is a great subject, Vicki. And there are professional organizations dedicated to student retention. That's an art all its own.

I can tell you stories, like the girlfriends who whined about how they came second, and pointed out all my friends who had quit and were dedicating more time to their families. Why couldn't I grow up - just like them? It's all a matter of perspective, I guess...

Of course you never catch any crapola for coming to class, right?

I'm sure Covey could think up a win-win solution.

By the way, what's up with Tristan? Does he think he's in medical school or something? I mean, what's up with that?

I had lots of dirty, rotten tricks I used when teaching at U.Va., like scheduling all tests just before midterms and finals (when most people would stop coming for a while). It was mean, but it worked. And I ended up with a bunch of smart karateka.

Suburbia has been a tougher nut for me to crack. I need to take the kids hostage or something...

- Bill

chef · Post by **chef** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:29 pm

Tristan doesn't have the proverbial ring through his nose (yet)....he still has his free time with no one to answer to.

That can be good and that can be bad, depending on your perspective.

Vicki

PS Already through with that meeting?

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:30 pm

I think for a lot of students it is just a passing interest. They come and get enthusiastic for a while, but after a few months the newness wears off and it becomes mundane...and suddenly all those statements about the martial arts being a lifetime of practice don't sound so inviting. Combine that with other life changes and pressures and it is easy to see a high drop-out rate.

What surprises me is that so many do stay in it for the long term!

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:36 pm

Another aspect is the American culture. We are all about sampling different experiences while not savoring any of them. We jump from job to job and hobby to hobby. Think of how many of the students who came for a few months and then disappeared probably walked into the dojo for the first time with the attitude "cool, I'll try it out".

And it is not just new students. My Kentucky Uechi Ryu instructor trained at the Shinjo dojo in the 1970s and reached Sandan. I trained under him in the mid-1980s until he moved out-of-state. The last I heard, in the late 1990s, was that he was no longer practicing the martial arts and had taken up mountain biking.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:47 pm

chef wrote: PS Already through with that meeting?

I'm multitasking. I have a couple of dozen people being trained via videoconference, and I'm the "expert" available for questions. If they only knew...

- Bill

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:53 pm

I think they leave because sensei won't let them go backwards

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:59 pm

Lairds probably right...

But also, a Sensei has to have some charisma. If he/she is a drag... well.. bye bye...

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:09 pm

Another aspect is the American culture. We are all about sampling different experiences while not savoring any of them. We jump from job to job and hobby to hobby. Think of how many of the students who came for a few months and then disappeared probably walked into the dojo for the first time with the attitude "cool, I'll try it out".

And it is not just new students. My Kentucky Uechi Ryu instructor trained at the Shinjo dojo in the 1970s and reached Sandan. I trained under him in the mid-1980s until he moved out-of-state. The last I heard, in the late 1990s, was that he was no longer practicing the martial arts and had taken up mountain biking.

Why not stop and try new things? If something has lost it's flavor why keep doing it? I say good for him.

BTW Glen, I've never thought of being an American as a birth defect.

I think in suburbia you have more competition. If someone is going to take time out of their day to do something it has to have greater value. What does karate offer that you can't get doing something else? Once you figure out what that something is you then have to figure out how to do it better than someother guy down the street who is also doing it.

benzocaine · Post by **benzocaine** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:29 pm

Like Bill says.. wives complain that ..."oh.... I forgot.... you have to go to karate tonight

...no go have fun..."

But the reason I believe people quit is because of boredom. They need to feel like something is being accomplished. This whole "ahhh patience Daniel-San" stuff wears thin when you work your ass off practicing a kata over and over again..and that's all you are doing is trying to perfect your form, which is completely subjective and varies from dojo to dojo as to what a "good" kata is.

Also, if a dojo isn't just meeting your expectations of realistic training. If you are fighting the little voice in the back of your mind that says this is BS well you will eventually walk.

AAAhmed46 · Post by **AAAhmed46** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:44 pm

Sometimes, the teacher yells at his students alot......

CANDANeh · Post by **CANDANeh** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:06 pm

My sensei and I were discussing this topic the other night, since the 70`s seen so many come and go.
Most I think enter a dojo with preconceived ideas about what Karate is, thank you Bruce

part of problem is hard work with little reward.
More socializing "after the game" I think would help but unlike playing ball or other sports, most dojo run weekday evenings.
Tournaments, seminars and of course Summer Camp help fuel or rejouvinate interest...again we are social animals and IMO karate is not social enough for most.
And yes,

But also, a Sensei has to have some charisma. If he/she is a drag... well.. bye bye...

Those who stick with the MA are getting something in return or why be there? However, I still think we are not doing enough to meet peoples needs (myself included) and need to look for more innovative ways to attract and keep students.
Some fitness gyms now have posters of people who are notin shape with thier ads, and they offer a refund if you complet an exit survey if you cancel membership or fail to return for an extended time period. we can not cater to everyone but can we do better?

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:31 pm

MikeK wrote: Why not stop and try new things? If something has lost it's flavor why keep doing it? I say good for him.

Definitely good for him. He stayed with the martial arts for over 10 years before moving on to something else he found that interested him more. And he stayed with doing physical activity, which is great.

I have nothing against trying new things. However a lot of our urge to continually try new things and inability to retain the flavor of something is culturally programmed. Take the common trend these days of the parents who rush kids around from one activity to the next so that the kids can sample many different activities. Yes some of them will find one they really connect with and focus on it, but most will just keep bouncing around and never learn to dedicate themselves to an activity. Those are the ones who end up just becoming spectators in life.

MikeK wrote: BTW Glen, I've never thought of being an American as a birth defect.

All cultures have their positives and negatives.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:00 pm

Glenn wrote: I have nothing against trying new things. However a lot of our urge to continually try new things and inability to retain the flavor of something is culturally programmed. Take the common trend these days of the parents who rush kids around from one activity to the next so that the kids can sample many different activities, yes some of them will find one they really connect with and focus on it, but most will just keep bouncing around and never learn to dedicate themselves to an activity. Those are the ones who end up just becoming spectators in life.

As both a parent and a person who has something to show for the years of doing "stuff", I have to make a comment here.

RANT=ON

I blame parents for a lot of this mess. Often when greeting a large number of brand new students in my U.Va. classes, I would perform the following exercise.

"How many of you have taken piano lessons?" (About two thirds of the people in class will raise their hands.) "OK, now how many of you can play the piano?" (Maybe 1 or 2 out of a group of 50 will raise their hands.)

This is pathetic!!! And the exercise made a truth-in-advertising point to everyone coming into the class.

By the time parents bring their kids from activity to activity to activity, the kids have absolutely nothing to show for all that "time." Meanwhile... This summer my number 1 son wanted to go to a baseball camp at his school for all of a week. I talked with the coach, who coaches the varsity team. He tried to make a point with me, one that I understood very well. He suggested my son take a long, hard look in the mirror, and ask himself what he wanted to do with himself. Meanwhile, he brought his all state varsity pitcher over, and asked him how many months out of the year he played baseball. "About eleven." Yep... And I believe the local Glen Allen team once won the national Little League championships.

I believe it is the duty of parents to get on their kids and make them stick with SOMETHING. If I indulged my son, he would be all over the map. "Karate *****, dad! None of my friends do it!" Meanwhile he had to have the latest lacrosse stick. And once he got the super titanium model, then he would rather play baseball in the spring. And oh, but my friends are all playing basketball. And now they want to do football.

First it was violin. Then it was trumpet. Then it was guitar. He had to have the best of each before he got bored and quit.

Sssccccreeeeecccchhhhhh!!!!!!

Yes, I believe in letting junior sample a few activities. But in my house, junior must master ONE musical instrument (he gets to pick it...) and be really good at ONE physical activity (with a little cross training in others), and do well in school to boot. By the time the kid goes on his own, he'll have something to show for all that time.

And most will not. They will be amongst the many that Dr. Ian gets to nag about getting fat and eating schit and being depressed.

Whose fault is that?

RANT=OFF

- Bill

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:25 pm

I've tried to do exit interviews etc. been keeping track. I live in a very transient community so I expect lots of student turn over. But when you crunch the numbers sixty five percent have left my dojo because they don't like the contact in drills and conditioning.

I don't expect that will ever change. The aerobics instructor is not home

And we don't expect him back soon.

My group pursues survival in a violent situation, thats the goal that is the focus. We don't care if it's Uechi. Some nights it's boxing some night it's ground work etc. We try to make the training realistic as possible given the skill set.We fail miserably, but we try our best. It's not for everyone. It will always be like this.

I could focus on a larger market, but I wouldn't enjoy the training. I have thought about promoting introductory boxing...at least that way I'd be attracting folks who can live with getting hit. might reduce the turn over due to contact.