http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/ ... onbat&only
*rant mode*
just listened to that three times, and each time I was more and more convinced that Frank Miller is a latent fascist and isn't even quick enough to know it. It's all there -- grandiose, vague statements about great civilisations, a constant bemoaning the lack of any kind of public will, and, most overtly, a faulting of Bush for failing to "mobilize the homefront."
The guy has no concept of human life having any intrinsic value, but at the same time you can tell, just listening in, that he utterly fails to live up to his own macho archetypes. The solution?
A great leader! Il Duce! Hail! Hail! We are a mighty civilization! Existential threat! We don't know what we want! Smite! Smite! Except the smite, of course -- Miller hasn't got the charisma for that. So instead we just get him whining about other people behaving like spoiled brats.
Total nutjob if you ask me.
That said, I wouldn't actually call him a fascist. He's off in his make believe world where Spartans are straight and freedom loving while Persians are gay, black, and heavily pierced(even though persians are often light skinned, some even Aryan looking)
Oh why can't we be more like Sparta?
So yeah, nutjob.
It's not a conservative style rant. It's this really strange, confused plea for everyone to be more like the spartans. (Except for the faggy parts.)
I've always considered the fascism in Dark Knight Returns and Dark Knight 2 are heavy on the satire, I had no idea Frank Miller was just a crazy #####.
He lumps everyone together in one group. ''Some cultures are better then others.''
Well maybe, maybe. But there are many cultures of the people he talks about, different countries and practices and opinions, living conditions.
*Rant mode off*
Miller's not really conservative --- more like a crazed libertarian who went even more nuts after 9/11. There's a definite fascist strain in his worship of strength in his works and opinions, but it's more nerdish fanboyism than goosestepping endorsement.
300 Spartans had the way! Frank milller: Were all spoiled.
Moderator: Available
300 Spartans had the way! Frank milller: Were all spoiled.
Last edited by AAAhmed46 on Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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fivedragons
- Posts: 1573
- Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:05 am
Adam, the world is literally full of people who live their life through the filter of their own personal movie script.
it keeps playing on and on, and it never seems to match up with the reality around them.
You have the power to rip through the web.
All it takes is sincerity.
A real honest sanchin.
it keeps playing on and on, and it never seems to match up with the reality around them.
You have the power to rip through the web.
All it takes is sincerity.
A real honest sanchin.
From the comments posted, I guess I missed the whole point of the movie. I thought it was about a culture that was dedicated to producing the best citizen-soldiers of their time. About the sacrifices these soldiers were willing to make to protect their friends, family, and country in spite of political betrayal and fellow citizens who would rather indulge in their own personal pleasures than worry about stopping a religiously inspired enemy bent on taking over the world. Oh! Sorry I got a little off track there, I was writing about ‘The 300’ – wasn’t I? 
Having been involved in karate for only a few years, I have come to understand that it takes a lifetime of dedication and training to become a shadow of the ‘ideal master-student’. I was intrigued by how well the movie showed that position is important (Sun Tzu), that ‘will’ must control ‘mood’ (Miyamoto Musashi), and the importance of the ‘free mind’ (Yagyu Munenori). That said, the movie riveted me to the moment and seemed to be a cohesive force pulling many of my martial art ideas a little closer together.
Having been involved in karate for only a few years, I have come to understand that it takes a lifetime of dedication and training to become a shadow of the ‘ideal master-student’. I was intrigued by how well the movie showed that position is important (Sun Tzu), that ‘will’ must control ‘mood’ (Miyamoto Musashi), and the importance of the ‘free mind’ (Yagyu Munenori). That said, the movie riveted me to the moment and seemed to be a cohesive force pulling many of my martial art ideas a little closer together.
Note that Spartans are pretty overrated. Yeah, they were definitely the best hoplites in Greece for awhile, but they certainly did retreat and surrender just like every other Greek, and they were beaten often by both Persians (Agesilaus II's invasion of Ionia) and other Greeks (numerous times by Athenians, Thebans, Argives, etc.). Note that they did not even put a fight when the Macedonians conquered Greece and took away at least as many freedoms as they would have lost under the Achaemenids. When the Spartans finally did get up to rebellion when the main Macedonian army was deep in Persia with Alexander (accepting Persian funds and ships to do so), they got absolutely crushed.
Just came back from it. Entertaining gore and visual style, and laugh out loud noble dialog. I was particularly entertained by a 7 year old leonidas killing a superwolf during a snowstorm in whitie-tighties and the endorsement of their eugenics policy--the one deformed baby who escapes infanticide comes back to betray them. Good times.
--Ian
What a jerk. This guy believes that Arabs who couldn't build planes could coordinate the 9/11 attacks. Most people know that 9/11 was a false flag op used as an excuse to invade Afghanistan. How could a successful movie director miss that and still believe the whacked out conspiracy about 19 arabs?
The Koran may have some passages that justify murder but so does the Bible. And the Israeli/USA government is head and shoulders above any muslim nation when it comes to murder.
The Koran may have some passages that justify murder but so does the Bible. And the Israeli/USA government is head and shoulders above any muslim nation when it comes to murder.
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Gene DeMambro
- Posts: 1684
- Joined: Sat Dec 12, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: Weymouth, MA US of A
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I have to admit that I am having a difficult time following this thread as well.
Go see the movie Titanic to enjoy a good movie. It's based upon real-life events, but it's history-based fiction.
Watching the reactions here is like watching both the narrow-minded Hollywood critics trash the movie and the Iranian government take offense. So if everyone is listening, why is it that the movie is such a success?
I'm heading out to see it myself. I more-or-less understand the historical basis of the movie. FWIW, Grossman talks about this very event in his book On Combat. It seems to me fair game for a little cinematic license. Is it done well or not?
Do you believe the tournament scene in the first Karate Kid? Did the movie serve a purpose and entertain as well?
Why is this movie making so much money?
Food for thought...
- Bill
Go see the movie Titanic to enjoy a good movie. It's based upon real-life events, but it's history-based fiction.
Watching the reactions here is like watching both the narrow-minded Hollywood critics trash the movie and the Iranian government take offense. So if everyone is listening, why is it that the movie is such a success?
I'm heading out to see it myself. I more-or-less understand the historical basis of the movie. FWIW, Grossman talks about this very event in his book On Combat. It seems to me fair game for a little cinematic license. Is it done well or not?
Do you believe the tournament scene in the first Karate Kid? Did the movie serve a purpose and entertain as well?
Why is this movie making so much money?
Food for thought...
- Bill
My issue is his use of ''those people''.
''They'' cannot build anything or blah blah blah.
Where the hell did Algebra come from?
EDIT: If he was talking about terrorists, i would agree with him and even appluad him.
But he isn't talking about terrorists.
''They'' cannot build anything or blah blah blah.
Where the hell did Algebra come from?
EDIT: If he was talking about terrorists, i would agree with him and even appluad him.
But he isn't talking about terrorists.
Last edited by AAAhmed46 on Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
Taken from somewhere else.....
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[/quote]
i'm not surprised that some people in the middle east have been offended, and i'm not surprised that some people in the west are offended that they are offended. this ##### happens all the time nowadays.
my 2 cents - i know many people who hate muslims. their voices shake when they talk about them, their hatred is so strong. i don't mean a few people here and there, i mean most people i meet. i am certain that when they see this film, it will do nothing but reinforce their views, or in the least make them nod their heads in agreement. and whether or not the makers of the film had any intention of doing this.
does the film mention at any point that the spartans could be professional soldiers because they had basically enslaved the locals who would take care of the neccessities like farming?[quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]
i'm not surprised that some people in the middle east have been offended, and i'm not surprised that some people in the west are offended that they are offended. this ##### happens all the time nowadays.
my 2 cents - i know many people who hate muslims. their voices shake when they talk about them, their hatred is so strong. i don't mean a few people here and there, i mean most people i meet. i am certain that when they see this film, it will do nothing but reinforce their views, or in the least make them nod their heads in agreement. and whether or not the makers of the film had any intention of doing this.
does the film mention at any point that the spartans could be professional soldiers because they had basically enslaved the locals who would take care of the neccessities like farming?[quote]
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
First... Not once in the movie is the word "Muslim" used. They talk about the Persian Empire. They talk about Xerxes. They talk about totalitarianism. They talk about false idol worship, and monarchs who allegedly are divinely inspired. Hmmm...
Second... The movie reminds me a bit of reading Homer, or reading ancient French text. They glorify warfare. They embellish on the stories of their victories with fantastic, monster-like opponents. They paint their enemies as evil. They worship strange gods. As they say, history is written by the victors.
Speaking of which... Do you really believe every word of the oral history about the ancient martial art masters and their conquests? Could they possibly have a charming tendency to exaggerate here and there?
Third... Democracy DID start in Greece. They did a lot of stupid things (like all countries) including give up the ghost on democracy itself for a bit in their recent history. But we do have a lot to be thankful for. We wouldn't be living with the governments we have if it weren't for the Greeks.
And finally... War stinks. Bravery is rare. Treachery abounds around us. Sic semper tyrannis. Evil should never be appeased. And nothing in my book beats a woman with a heart, a brain, and a set of cahones.
These are the lessons that this history-based fiction attempts to convey - flaws and all.
Easy for me to say? Hey, we Irish never conquered the world either. Not directly anyway...
Oh and by the way, I can see why the Hollywood critics hated the movie. And I can see why so many shows sold out in the movie theatre I went to - even on a Sunday. Very interesting...
- Bill
Second... The movie reminds me a bit of reading Homer, or reading ancient French text. They glorify warfare. They embellish on the stories of their victories with fantastic, monster-like opponents. They paint their enemies as evil. They worship strange gods. As they say, history is written by the victors.
Speaking of which... Do you really believe every word of the oral history about the ancient martial art masters and their conquests? Could they possibly have a charming tendency to exaggerate here and there?
Third... Democracy DID start in Greece. They did a lot of stupid things (like all countries) including give up the ghost on democracy itself for a bit in their recent history. But we do have a lot to be thankful for. We wouldn't be living with the governments we have if it weren't for the Greeks.
And finally... War stinks. Bravery is rare. Treachery abounds around us. Sic semper tyrannis. Evil should never be appeased. And nothing in my book beats a woman with a heart, a brain, and a set of cahones.
These are the lessons that this history-based fiction attempts to convey - flaws and all.Easy for me to say? Hey, we Irish never conquered the world either. Not directly anyway...
Oh and by the way, I can see why the Hollywood critics hated the movie. And I can see why so many shows sold out in the movie theatre I went to - even on a Sunday. Very interesting...
- Bill
Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Did you listen to link? Did you listen to what he said(the creator of 300)
I could care less about 300 it self, a movie is a movie.
I only put it in the title so people other than lurkers actually look at the link and respond. I wanted people to actually LOOK at the thread.
Im primarily discussing Frank miller, thats my intent.
I could care less about 300 it self, a movie is a movie.
I only put it in the title so people other than lurkers actually look at the link and respond. I wanted people to actually LOOK at the thread.
Im primarily discussing Frank miller, thats my intent.
But on topic of the spartans, the 300 didn't do much. THey were ripped apart.
THe reasons the persians didn't take greece was because of the ATHENIANS counter attacked. Retreating was a smart thing.
Thats right, the philosophical, artistic, democratic athenians.
The 300 were siginficant though, they boosted alot of moral and showed that the persians main strength was simply primarily psychological war-fare.
Something i found:
Some things on Sparta and the Persian Wars.
1. At Sphacteria there was a land battle. After a long siege the Athenians realised that they had to storm the island. Cleon bragged at the Athenian assembly that he could do that, something that many doubted considering the Spartan's fame as soldiers. In any case Cleon managed to get himself caught in his own bragging and was forced to go to that island and try it. He did it very well, aided by the Spartans on Sphacteria who accidentally burned the island tree cover and exposed their positions to the Athenians. Cleon used light troops (surely advised by Demosthenes who had already both showed and suffered this type of warrior effectiveness), archer and javelin throwers, who moved in circles around the slow and cumbersome Spartan phalanx. Surrounded and unable to counter the enemy's attacks, since the enemy refused to come to fight hand to hand, the Spartans surrendered. Later they explained that they did surrender because this type of fighting wasn't a noble one (Spartans regarded javelins and arrows as "women"'s weapons and called them "spindles"). Of course it sounds like an excuse.
2. There was indeed a Delphic prophecy that influenced the Spartan strategy at Thermopylae. It seems that the prophecy stated that either Sparta would be laid waste or a Spartan king would die. Leonidas chose for his 300 men that had fathered children because he expected that they would not return.
The defence of the Thermopylae failed and I believe that if Leonidas had send a few veteran Spartan officers with the 1000 Phocians, that covered the pass that the Immortals used, and had make them fortify the pass instead of simply camping there, things could have been different. Of course sending Spartans to command allied forces, something that became common in the Peloponnesian War, could have been to new and radical at that time.
The real importance of Thermopylae was that changed the moral balance of the war. Till that moment moral superiority had been with Xerxes. He had played it masterfully, displaying his forces (he gave a tour of his camp to some Greek spies and then released them so they could return and tell what they had seen), building huge bridges of digging canals just to impress his enemies and forming a huge army that seemed night unstoppable. Persians were good at this game, they were the best, one of the reasons for Xerxes to raise such a cumbersome army (with surely very low quality soldiers among real fighting forces) was to scare the Greeks, and he was being successful.
Thermopylae changed some things. It shows the Persians that the Greeks (and not just the Spartans) were very dangerous enemies and that they fought like devils. It proved that it was suicidal to launch a frontal assault against a phalanx and that casualties were going to be very high in the Persian army. And the worse was all this has happened against a small Greek army with just 300 Spartans. With his sacrifice Leonidas was sending Xerxes a message, if 300 Spartans and 7000 other Greeks had done that, what would happen when he had to fight 5000 Spartans and about 30 000 (5000 periekoi among them) hoplite allies in the Corinth Isthmus, a position that could not be turned?
Because, I suspect, that this was the whole deal with that Carneia festival that didn't allow the Spartans to march. The Spartans knew a few things about war and had decided that Central Greece couldn't he held, they wanted to defend the Peloponnesus, their homeland but they could leave the rest of Greece to the Persians without a fight. And since they had to fight, why not score some points? The Persians were masters at psychological warfare but the Spartans were not far behind, that thing about long hair, dressing in red, advancing in silence, declaring the war every years to the already conquered Messenians, sending the Krypteia to kill some selected helots, all was psychological warfare.
Leonidas knew that he had to put some doubts in Xerxes mind and some fear in his brave soldier’s hearts. If he wanted to defend Sparta this was the only way. I suspect that he wanted to show the Persian that the cost to invade Greece was too high.
But of course, if the Greeks were hostages of the Spartan army when they had to defend themselves from the Persians (those who didn't join the Persian bandwagon) the Spartans were hostages of the Athenian Fleet. Because if they wanted to keep their defences in Corinth safe from an enemy landing in their rear, they needed the Athenian triremes, that were the bulk of the Greek navy. Themistocles had seen to this.
THe reasons the persians didn't take greece was because of the ATHENIANS counter attacked. Retreating was a smart thing.
Thats right, the philosophical, artistic, democratic athenians.
The 300 were siginficant though, they boosted alot of moral and showed that the persians main strength was simply primarily psychological war-fare.
Something i found:
Some things on Sparta and the Persian Wars.
1. At Sphacteria there was a land battle. After a long siege the Athenians realised that they had to storm the island. Cleon bragged at the Athenian assembly that he could do that, something that many doubted considering the Spartan's fame as soldiers. In any case Cleon managed to get himself caught in his own bragging and was forced to go to that island and try it. He did it very well, aided by the Spartans on Sphacteria who accidentally burned the island tree cover and exposed their positions to the Athenians. Cleon used light troops (surely advised by Demosthenes who had already both showed and suffered this type of warrior effectiveness), archer and javelin throwers, who moved in circles around the slow and cumbersome Spartan phalanx. Surrounded and unable to counter the enemy's attacks, since the enemy refused to come to fight hand to hand, the Spartans surrendered. Later they explained that they did surrender because this type of fighting wasn't a noble one (Spartans regarded javelins and arrows as "women"'s weapons and called them "spindles"). Of course it sounds like an excuse.
2. There was indeed a Delphic prophecy that influenced the Spartan strategy at Thermopylae. It seems that the prophecy stated that either Sparta would be laid waste or a Spartan king would die. Leonidas chose for his 300 men that had fathered children because he expected that they would not return.
The defence of the Thermopylae failed and I believe that if Leonidas had send a few veteran Spartan officers with the 1000 Phocians, that covered the pass that the Immortals used, and had make them fortify the pass instead of simply camping there, things could have been different. Of course sending Spartans to command allied forces, something that became common in the Peloponnesian War, could have been to new and radical at that time.
The real importance of Thermopylae was that changed the moral balance of the war. Till that moment moral superiority had been with Xerxes. He had played it masterfully, displaying his forces (he gave a tour of his camp to some Greek spies and then released them so they could return and tell what they had seen), building huge bridges of digging canals just to impress his enemies and forming a huge army that seemed night unstoppable. Persians were good at this game, they were the best, one of the reasons for Xerxes to raise such a cumbersome army (with surely very low quality soldiers among real fighting forces) was to scare the Greeks, and he was being successful.
Thermopylae changed some things. It shows the Persians that the Greeks (and not just the Spartans) were very dangerous enemies and that they fought like devils. It proved that it was suicidal to launch a frontal assault against a phalanx and that casualties were going to be very high in the Persian army. And the worse was all this has happened against a small Greek army with just 300 Spartans. With his sacrifice Leonidas was sending Xerxes a message, if 300 Spartans and 7000 other Greeks had done that, what would happen when he had to fight 5000 Spartans and about 30 000 (5000 periekoi among them) hoplite allies in the Corinth Isthmus, a position that could not be turned?
Because, I suspect, that this was the whole deal with that Carneia festival that didn't allow the Spartans to march. The Spartans knew a few things about war and had decided that Central Greece couldn't he held, they wanted to defend the Peloponnesus, their homeland but they could leave the rest of Greece to the Persians without a fight. And since they had to fight, why not score some points? The Persians were masters at psychological warfare but the Spartans were not far behind, that thing about long hair, dressing in red, advancing in silence, declaring the war every years to the already conquered Messenians, sending the Krypteia to kill some selected helots, all was psychological warfare.
Leonidas knew that he had to put some doubts in Xerxes mind and some fear in his brave soldier’s hearts. If he wanted to defend Sparta this was the only way. I suspect that he wanted to show the Persian that the cost to invade Greece was too high.
But of course, if the Greeks were hostages of the Spartan army when they had to defend themselves from the Persians (those who didn't join the Persian bandwagon) the Spartans were hostages of the Athenian Fleet. Because if they wanted to keep their defences in Corinth safe from an enemy landing in their rear, they needed the Athenian triremes, that were the bulk of the Greek navy. Themistocles had seen to this.
