Glasheen Sensei,
I have completed the basic learning of Suparempi Kata structure only, (now just a lifetime of study left). It does feel as a part of the main 3 Kata of Uechi (Sanchin, Seisan & Sanseiru). Which leads me to this question for the readers.
Being there were 7 oriinal Shaolin Kata:
Sanchin (3)
Seisan (13)
Seipi (18)?
Niseshi (24)
Sanseiru (36)
Useishi (54)
Suparempi (108)
Does anyone have a version of Niseishi, or Seipi, or Useishi that is more in line with the Uechi versions and the Suparempi? My Useishi (Gojushiho) has just 2 week similarities with the Uechi Kata and Suparempi. Probably as it is a version that was tinkered with along the way.
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Evan Pantazi
www.erols.com/kyusho
Niseshi
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Evan Pantazi
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Bill Glasheen
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Niseshi
Evan
I am not aware of any. I studied the Goju Seipai and it is nothing like Uechiryu. When one investigates the oral history of Uechiryu (pangainoon), there is only a reference to sanchin, seisan, sanseiryu, and maybe a superinpei (depending on who you ask).
In the interview of Simon Lailey that George has on tape, Simon suggests that it was "fashionable" to use these numbers as names for choreographed forms. Certainly the Big Three (tm) of Uechiryu are quite a bit evolved from the early Shaolin forms. We only see hints of the animal movements, whereas the principles of infighting have been brought to the forefront. Thus one might speculate that there were creative folk out there who choreographed forms and even whole systems based on their general knowledge of martial arts and their own creative skills. In fact we have evidence of whole systems (such as Pai Lum) that were choreographed specificly for a prominent family that requested it. Other similar "systems" from the area (like Wing Chun) were choreographed by individuals who had their own way of doing things (the vertical fist punch with radial deflection, etc).
What I'm suggesting, based on other systems and Simon's comments, is that the names of the forms may have little to do with the original Shaolin forms with those names other than the fact that it was fashionable to use those names. With no oral record (to date) of other existing forms, there's no reason to suspect that they exist.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 06-24-99).]
I am not aware of any. I studied the Goju Seipai and it is nothing like Uechiryu. When one investigates the oral history of Uechiryu (pangainoon), there is only a reference to sanchin, seisan, sanseiryu, and maybe a superinpei (depending on who you ask).
In the interview of Simon Lailey that George has on tape, Simon suggests that it was "fashionable" to use these numbers as names for choreographed forms. Certainly the Big Three (tm) of Uechiryu are quite a bit evolved from the early Shaolin forms. We only see hints of the animal movements, whereas the principles of infighting have been brought to the forefront. Thus one might speculate that there were creative folk out there who choreographed forms and even whole systems based on their general knowledge of martial arts and their own creative skills. In fact we have evidence of whole systems (such as Pai Lum) that were choreographed specificly for a prominent family that requested it. Other similar "systems" from the area (like Wing Chun) were choreographed by individuals who had their own way of doing things (the vertical fist punch with radial deflection, etc).
What I'm suggesting, based on other systems and Simon's comments, is that the names of the forms may have little to do with the original Shaolin forms with those names other than the fact that it was fashionable to use those names. With no oral record (to date) of other existing forms, there's no reason to suspect that they exist.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited 06-24-99).]
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Bill Glasheen
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- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Niseshi
Evan
I will say that there are obvious similarities between the Uechi and Goju sanchins, and intriguing ones between the Uechi and Goju seisan. In fact the seisan patterns are remarkably similar up to the point of the first turn; then they are completely different animals. The sanseiryu katas look like they come from different planets. Thus we see evidence of how people copy when they want to, and go their own way on a whim - all under the same name.
- Bill
I will say that there are obvious similarities between the Uechi and Goju sanchins, and intriguing ones between the Uechi and Goju seisan. In fact the seisan patterns are remarkably similar up to the point of the first turn; then they are completely different animals. The sanseiryu katas look like they come from different planets. Thus we see evidence of how people copy when they want to, and go their own way on a whim - all under the same name.
- Bill
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Evan Pantazi
- Posts: 1897
- Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
- Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
- Contact:
Niseshi
Thanks Sensei for the input, ahh the battle goes on!
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Evan Pantazi
www.erols.com/kyusho
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Evan Pantazi
www.erols.com/kyusho
