Not looking to start another flame war, but...
Just wondering if the results of Sifu Mooney's summer camp experiment were ever officially posted and discussed. I've searched the archives but can't find them. As these forums are the most insightful and intelligent on the web, and as I've come to respect the opinion of many personalities here, any insights and experiences would still be highly valued.
(Feel free to delete the question if need be!)
Thanks in advance,
PHIL
RICH MOONEY RESULTS?
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gmattson
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RICH MOONEY RESULTS?
The results were published and I just received a copy of the text which I'm in the process of posting to our article's site. Look for it today.
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GEM
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GEM
RICH MOONEY RESULTS?
At last 
.....
So surveying the results, it seems that the empty force not only failed to show a convincing effect, it actually did worse than chance. Just randomly, one would hope to influence subjects correctly 1/3 of the time if there are only three possible results. (Thought I suppose 1/3 of the efforts were for motionlessness, and that was the predominant response.) And the fact that the two subjects who had the greatest movement were an assistant of the empty force practitioner and a chi enthusiasts provides some further evidence that psychic phenomena were indeed at work--the phenomenon of suggestibility, most importantly.
So the question is, what now? Should people devote their time and ahem, energy, to further study of this technique which is reduced from powerful to less than chance when bias and suggestion are removed?
I would think the next step would be to approach the general art of kyusho in as similar a fashion as possible. My opinion, and it is only that, is that some fraction, yet to be determined, of the kyusho KO effect is due to suggestion. I know part of it is "real" beause I've been hit in GB-20 and felt quite an electric zap I doubt my suggestability could conjure up and felt my knees buckle somewhat. I used it quite by accident and without warning my uke with substantial effect as well. At my last test, I received a stiff shomen zuki to jaw (vs stomach 5 or 6, per your ideology) that didn't knock me down but rendered me pretty well motionless and blind for a few seconds.
Yet I remain skeptical that tapping on the legs or arms is going to KO someone, especially since I've seen the empty force on video knock people as soundly to their rears. Several articles on this webpage detail the lack of evidence for the cyclic 5 element theory, and my anaylsis on the UVA webpage details the general explanatory failure of kyusho rules for characterizing KOs (though this says nothing about whether they occur).
So perhaps a second test can be designed to further characterize the kyusho KO. Thoughts?
.....So surveying the results, it seems that the empty force not only failed to show a convincing effect, it actually did worse than chance. Just randomly, one would hope to influence subjects correctly 1/3 of the time if there are only three possible results. (Thought I suppose 1/3 of the efforts were for motionlessness, and that was the predominant response.) And the fact that the two subjects who had the greatest movement were an assistant of the empty force practitioner and a chi enthusiasts provides some further evidence that psychic phenomena were indeed at work--the phenomenon of suggestibility, most importantly.
So the question is, what now? Should people devote their time and ahem, energy, to further study of this technique which is reduced from powerful to less than chance when bias and suggestion are removed?
I would think the next step would be to approach the general art of kyusho in as similar a fashion as possible. My opinion, and it is only that, is that some fraction, yet to be determined, of the kyusho KO effect is due to suggestion. I know part of it is "real" beause I've been hit in GB-20 and felt quite an electric zap I doubt my suggestability could conjure up and felt my knees buckle somewhat. I used it quite by accident and without warning my uke with substantial effect as well. At my last test, I received a stiff shomen zuki to jaw (vs stomach 5 or 6, per your ideology) that didn't knock me down but rendered me pretty well motionless and blind for a few seconds.
Yet I remain skeptical that tapping on the legs or arms is going to KO someone, especially since I've seen the empty force on video knock people as soundly to their rears. Several articles on this webpage detail the lack of evidence for the cyclic 5 element theory, and my anaylsis on the UVA webpage details the general explanatory failure of kyusho rules for characterizing KOs (though this says nothing about whether they occur).
So perhaps a second test can be designed to further characterize the kyusho KO. Thoughts?
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Bill Glasheen
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RICH MOONEY RESULTS?
George
I assume we sent a copy to RM, right?
Ian
The test is already designed. We're going to have all the dojos in IUKF "volunteer" their disgruntled students for subjects. Half of them will be smacked in GB-20 by Van, and the other half will be roundhouse kicked in the thigh as a control group. We will then send them back to their dojos, and their instructors will rate their attitudes from that day forward.
But seriously...
You can see what kind of ethical issues are involved in doing studies like this. The evolution of kyusho knowledge has a checkered past. There are the legends of leaders who stuck their slaves or prisoners with needles and charted the points that caused them to react in a negative fashion. Anyone who does not believe that there are ill-gotten gains in this field should read historical accounts of the treatment of POWs in World War II. Pictures in The Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang (??) will keep you awake at night. Fortunately and/or unfortunately (and not surprisingly), most of this experimentation was not done in a "thoughtful" manner.
I have just a few comments to make here.
1) The fact that RM failed to show an "effect" in this experiment doesn't exclude the possibility of something interesting or useful going on in the practice of Lin Kong Jing. Certainly many a preacher has made a little money off of techniques like this (Praise the Lord!). It does however give us reason to be skeptical when we read The Use Of Qi In Martial Arts Applications by Richard M. Mooney on Fightingarts.com.
2) Experiments done by Flannagan et al have called 5-E theory and the cycle of destruction into question. Other published research in peer-reviewed journals have shown the same beneficial effect of acupuncture in pain management regardless of whether or not the provider put the needle on the designated spot. But again, that doesn't exclude the possibility that something interesting is going on.
3) My personal bias is that there isn't one overreaching theory. Thus I would presume that one would need to study the mechanism for LFKOs one sequence or technique at a time. Certainly there have been many reasonable attempts (e.g. Bruce Miller, Bruce Siddle, etc.) to attribute the observed behavior to known physiologic phenomena. However most of the theories remain untested. Still, this provides a foundation of theory that can develop hypotheses that could be tested.
4) But even given the theories and hypotheses, there are many ethical barriers to conducting research like this. And I do not believe that a dojo environment with a "you hit me, I hit you" approach is either academically, ethically, or legally sound.
But good minds may still help us get part way there.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited October 19, 2000).]
I assume we sent a copy to RM, right?
Ian
The test is already designed. We're going to have all the dojos in IUKF "volunteer" their disgruntled students for subjects. Half of them will be smacked in GB-20 by Van, and the other half will be roundhouse kicked in the thigh as a control group. We will then send them back to their dojos, and their instructors will rate their attitudes from that day forward.
But seriously...
You can see what kind of ethical issues are involved in doing studies like this. The evolution of kyusho knowledge has a checkered past. There are the legends of leaders who stuck their slaves or prisoners with needles and charted the points that caused them to react in a negative fashion. Anyone who does not believe that there are ill-gotten gains in this field should read historical accounts of the treatment of POWs in World War II. Pictures in The Rape of Nanking by Iris Chang (??) will keep you awake at night. Fortunately and/or unfortunately (and not surprisingly), most of this experimentation was not done in a "thoughtful" manner.
I have just a few comments to make here.
1) The fact that RM failed to show an "effect" in this experiment doesn't exclude the possibility of something interesting or useful going on in the practice of Lin Kong Jing. Certainly many a preacher has made a little money off of techniques like this (Praise the Lord!). It does however give us reason to be skeptical when we read The Use Of Qi In Martial Arts Applications by Richard M. Mooney on Fightingarts.com.
2) Experiments done by Flannagan et al have called 5-E theory and the cycle of destruction into question. Other published research in peer-reviewed journals have shown the same beneficial effect of acupuncture in pain management regardless of whether or not the provider put the needle on the designated spot. But again, that doesn't exclude the possibility that something interesting is going on.
3) My personal bias is that there isn't one overreaching theory. Thus I would presume that one would need to study the mechanism for LFKOs one sequence or technique at a time. Certainly there have been many reasonable attempts (e.g. Bruce Miller, Bruce Siddle, etc.) to attribute the observed behavior to known physiologic phenomena. However most of the theories remain untested. Still, this provides a foundation of theory that can develop hypotheses that could be tested.
4) But even given the theories and hypotheses, there are many ethical barriers to conducting research like this. And I do not believe that a dojo environment with a "you hit me, I hit you" approach is either academically, ethically, or legally sound.
But good minds may still help us get part way there.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited October 19, 2000).]
RICH MOONEY RESULTS?
I don't know what the test was... Nor do I advocate for or against "chi"...
But Glasheen-sempai,
I can say that after my knees got wreaked a number of years ago and the subsequent surgery, I lost feeling on the outside of my left leg from just below the knee all the way to the little toe. The doctors told me that it was permanent nerve damage and were 99.9% certain the feeling would never come back.
I've been going to see Margaret Chojin for a while now. She does various TCM techniques and Shiatsu massage on my legs. When she started, she tested me to see what (if any) feeling I had and where it started/stopped. I didn't look, I just told her when I felt something. As of the last visit, the numbness is localized to my ankle/foot and I actually felt her on a toe that had no feeling before.
I don't know about accupressure or hitting the points or "chi" or whatever, but I can tell you that I could care less how it has helped, the fact that I have started to feel something there after all these years of thinking that I was just going to have to deal with it... well... it's wonderful!
She's also made the chronic pain in my knees subside to the point where I don't even think about it... and getting the back pain down so that I can actually sleep at night! Man, this is like heaven! It don't care if it's the meridians or just the fact that there is some form of deep thereaputic massage happening, but it seems to work for me and since I've been through extensive physical thereapy in an attempt to get the feeling back, I don't think this is just a placebo effect.
My wife touched me on the leg last night while I was laying on the den rug and when I turned to look at her she said, "you felt that"? When I told her that I did, she said that I hadn't felt it before when whe did that... She was almost as excited as I was.
Sooooo,
"Qi" or
"Ki" or
"Chi" or
"poke a point on my knee"...
doesn't matter one bit to me...
I finally think I can be (relatively) "pain-free"...
BTW, Excellent double-blind study... "two thumbs up"... I can imagine how hard it was to do that with all the people who "want to believe" out here.
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited October 19, 2000).]
But Glasheen-sempai,
I can say that after my knees got wreaked a number of years ago and the subsequent surgery, I lost feeling on the outside of my left leg from just below the knee all the way to the little toe. The doctors told me that it was permanent nerve damage and were 99.9% certain the feeling would never come back.
I've been going to see Margaret Chojin for a while now. She does various TCM techniques and Shiatsu massage on my legs. When she started, she tested me to see what (if any) feeling I had and where it started/stopped. I didn't look, I just told her when I felt something. As of the last visit, the numbness is localized to my ankle/foot and I actually felt her on a toe that had no feeling before.
I don't know about accupressure or hitting the points or "chi" or whatever, but I can tell you that I could care less how it has helped, the fact that I have started to feel something there after all these years of thinking that I was just going to have to deal with it... well... it's wonderful!
She's also made the chronic pain in my knees subside to the point where I don't even think about it... and getting the back pain down so that I can actually sleep at night! Man, this is like heaven! It don't care if it's the meridians or just the fact that there is some form of deep thereaputic massage happening, but it seems to work for me and since I've been through extensive physical thereapy in an attempt to get the feeling back, I don't think this is just a placebo effect.My wife touched me on the leg last night while I was laying on the den rug and when I turned to look at her she said, "you felt that"? When I told her that I did, she said that I hadn't felt it before when whe did that... She was almost as excited as I was.
Sooooo,
"Qi" or
"Ki" or
"Chi" or
"poke a point on my knee"...
doesn't matter one bit to me...
I finally think I can be (relatively) "pain-free"...
BTW, Excellent double-blind study... "two thumbs up"... I can imagine how hard it was to do that with all the people who "want to believe" out here.
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited October 19, 2000).]
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
RICH MOONEY RESULTS?
Panther
Several years back, I had to teach the Fuzhou Suparinpei - a VERY long form - at camp for about 4 hours a day, and do a demo on Saturday evening. I walked into the camp with raging inflammation in my right shoulder (a very long story). In-between sessions, I let Patrick turn me into a pincushion. I prayed to the Ibuprofen god. I would have prayed to Mecca if someone had told me the direction... I got through the weekend - probably mostly from sheer perseverance.
Just before I left, I bumped into Margaret. I explained the kind of blinding pain I was in. Margaret put me down on the grass under that Pine tree near the dining hall, and did her magic. I don't believe in chi. I believe in Margaret. She made it hurt soooo good. I wish I could have taken her home with me, married her, been her slave, whatever....just for more sessions.
Recently I got the same problem in my left shoulder (similarly a long story). It was getting close to my trip to New England for the black belt test. My rehab was not getting me there very fast. I told Vicki - someone known to many at camp. I often worked in small classes with her on Thursday night. I told her how I had yet to find a therapeutic masseuse in Richmond since I moved from Charlottesville. Well the two Thursdays before I flew up, Vicki took it upon herself to torture my left shoulder. She had no particular training. She just had "the touch," and a boundless nurturing nature. When I came up to Boston last Saturday, I don't think anyone detected I had a shoulder problem. It is now nearly 100%.
There is such a thing as "regression to the mean," meaning some things naturally get better anyhow. There is also a known benefit from massage and irrigation. There can be a buildup of toxins at a site of injury. Any method that flushes those toxins out and stimulates the transport of O2 and nutrients to the site is a good thing.
Tell Margaret I'm going to ask her to marry me in one of my next lifetimes. You are in good hands - literally speaking.
Oh and by the way, the fellow Bruce Miller I mentioned above is a "western trained" (whatever the hell that is) physician's assistant, and also trained in eastern, chi-based massage techniques. He attributes much of his knowledge and ability in the realm of kyusho to his straddling the two domains. And he doesn't believe in chi.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited October 19, 2000).]
Several years back, I had to teach the Fuzhou Suparinpei - a VERY long form - at camp for about 4 hours a day, and do a demo on Saturday evening. I walked into the camp with raging inflammation in my right shoulder (a very long story). In-between sessions, I let Patrick turn me into a pincushion. I prayed to the Ibuprofen god. I would have prayed to Mecca if someone had told me the direction... I got through the weekend - probably mostly from sheer perseverance.
Just before I left, I bumped into Margaret. I explained the kind of blinding pain I was in. Margaret put me down on the grass under that Pine tree near the dining hall, and did her magic. I don't believe in chi. I believe in Margaret. She made it hurt soooo good.
I wish I could have taken her home with me, married her, been her slave, whatever....just for more sessions.Recently I got the same problem in my left shoulder (similarly a long story). It was getting close to my trip to New England for the black belt test. My rehab was not getting me there very fast. I told Vicki - someone known to many at camp. I often worked in small classes with her on Thursday night. I told her how I had yet to find a therapeutic masseuse in Richmond since I moved from Charlottesville. Well the two Thursdays before I flew up, Vicki took it upon herself to torture my left shoulder. She had no particular training. She just had "the touch," and a boundless nurturing nature. When I came up to Boston last Saturday, I don't think anyone detected I had a shoulder problem. It is now nearly 100%.
There is such a thing as "regression to the mean," meaning some things naturally get better anyhow. There is also a known benefit from massage and irrigation. There can be a buildup of toxins at a site of injury. Any method that flushes those toxins out and stimulates the transport of O2 and nutrients to the site is a good thing.
Tell Margaret I'm going to ask her to marry me in one of my next lifetimes.
You are in good hands - literally speaking.Oh and by the way, the fellow Bruce Miller I mentioned above is a "western trained" (whatever the hell that is) physician's assistant, and also trained in eastern, chi-based massage techniques. He attributes much of his knowledge and ability in the realm of kyusho to his straddling the two domains. And he doesn't believe in chi.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited October 19, 2000).]
RICH MOONEY RESULTS?
Glasheen-sempai,
I must have been editing while you were responding...
After I wrote the initial post, I thought I better actually read this paper that you and J.D. wrote. So I went and found it.
I gotta tell ya. I've always been a big fan of "The Amazing Randi"! I have had great pleasure in watching him turn the mystics into mere magicians.
Again, it must have been really hard to do your study and write your paper with so many folks who "want to believe" out here. Excellent work.
Now, if you could just get that kyusho study going (without my involvement... I have no desire to let someone smack me upside tha head to see if I die sooner rather than later! )
And Margaret refuses to let me become her willing slave either. She's just great. I can't wait to be able to work out over there...
[This message has been edited by Panther (edited October 19, 2000).]
I must have been editing while you were responding...
After I wrote the initial post, I thought I better actually read this paper that you and J.D. wrote. So I went and found it.
I gotta tell ya. I've always been a big fan of "The Amazing Randi"! I have had great pleasure in watching him turn the mystics into mere magicians.
Again, it must have been really hard to do your study and write your paper with so many folks who "want to believe" out here. Excellent work.
Now, if you could just get that kyusho study going (without my involvement... I have no desire to let someone smack me upside tha head to see if I die sooner rather than later!
)And Margaret refuses to let me become her willing slave either.
She's just great. I can't wait to be able to work out over there...[This message has been edited by Panther (edited October 19, 2000).]
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RACastanet
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RICH MOONEY RESULTS?
Ah yes..... Chi.
At the last camp I was preparing for my 'Vacation with the Corps' and was very concerned about my many aches and pains. I had only four weeks to get into the best shape of my life.
What did I do? Three sessions with Patrick, one with Margaret and one with the visiting chiropractor (not Dr. Ann, but very good). And wow, did it work. I know it is dangerous to mix drugs like this (I stayed away from booze and cigars however) but I needed help. The tendinitis in my forearms, shoulders and ankle all but disappeared. My hemmeroids (sp?) went into remission. My lower back was, and still is, trouble free inspite of wearing body armor and carrying a pack for many hours a day for a week.
Why did this work? Who knows? Don't care. I'm going to do a repeat at next year's camp and hope that Rich Mooney is there along with George Benson to add their healing touch to the mix. And, I may need it all for next year's summer 'vacation'.
Rich
At the last camp I was preparing for my 'Vacation with the Corps' and was very concerned about my many aches and pains. I had only four weeks to get into the best shape of my life.
What did I do? Three sessions with Patrick, one with Margaret and one with the visiting chiropractor (not Dr. Ann, but very good). And wow, did it work. I know it is dangerous to mix drugs like this (I stayed away from booze and cigars however) but I needed help. The tendinitis in my forearms, shoulders and ankle all but disappeared. My hemmeroids (sp?) went into remission. My lower back was, and still is, trouble free inspite of wearing body armor and carrying a pack for many hours a day for a week.
Why did this work? Who knows? Don't care. I'm going to do a repeat at next year's camp and hope that Rich Mooney is there along with George Benson to add their healing touch to the mix. And, I may need it all for next year's summer 'vacation'.
Rich
RICH MOONEY RESULTS?
Aaaaahhhhhhh,
They've done it, they've killed the chi!
Oh well, back to the void.
They've done it, they've killed the chi!
Oh well, back to the void.
RICH MOONEY RESULTS?
Rich on the hemmorhoid front: TMI, my man, TMI!
Bill on the second marriage front: easy, easy! Chad and Sterling might hear.
But on the ethics front, I think there's plenty of room.
All the ukes would be informed volunteers. They would be experiencing techniques undergone by many individuals previously who seem to be well and also volunteered--see the discussion on Evan's page. He has, btw, KO'd over 300 people if I recall. What is more unethical about studying that then doing it and failing to gather the information?
People undergo all kinds of potentially dangerous manipulations in ethical research, testing new drugs, to work out side effects and find correct doses and compare the new drugs with the ones on the market. Every now and then a new intervention B is compared with tried and true A in the hopes of finding a breakthrough and the study is stopped early because the B group is, in various examples of medspeak I've heard:
crumping
boxing (as in coffin)
going to ground
taking the dirt nap
We're just talking about whacking some healthy people. I for one get hit in pressure points everytime i do kotekitae. Might as well study it. No KO's are necessarily required, as the work in the article section on the cycle of destruction shows. But I still think even KO can be ethically studied. Otherwise shouldn't we rush out and close all those kyusho dojos?
Bill on the second marriage front: easy, easy! Chad and Sterling might hear.
But on the ethics front, I think there's plenty of room.
All the ukes would be informed volunteers. They would be experiencing techniques undergone by many individuals previously who seem to be well and also volunteered--see the discussion on Evan's page. He has, btw, KO'd over 300 people if I recall. What is more unethical about studying that then doing it and failing to gather the information?
People undergo all kinds of potentially dangerous manipulations in ethical research, testing new drugs, to work out side effects and find correct doses and compare the new drugs with the ones on the market. Every now and then a new intervention B is compared with tried and true A in the hopes of finding a breakthrough and the study is stopped early because the B group is, in various examples of medspeak I've heard:
crumping
boxing (as in coffin)
going to ground
taking the dirt nap
We're just talking about whacking some healthy people. I for one get hit in pressure points everytime i do kotekitae. Might as well study it. No KO's are necessarily required, as the work in the article section on the cycle of destruction shows. But I still think even KO can be ethically studied. Otherwise shouldn't we rush out and close all those kyusho dojos?
RICH MOONEY RESULTS?
Wow! Talk about cosmic timing! Thanks!
PHIL
PHIL
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paul giella
- Posts: 315
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RICH MOONEY RESULTS?
Bill and JD,
Your study and report are truly first class and will set the standard for future tests of many of our cherished beliefs. I commend you both also for your evenhanded, nonsensationalist, presentation of the problem, the experimental design and the results.
Your study and report are truly first class and will set the standard for future tests of many of our cherished beliefs. I commend you both also for your evenhanded, nonsensationalist, presentation of the problem, the experimental design and the results.
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
RICH MOONEY RESULTS?
Paul
Thanks.
Let us not forget that - in spite of all the dialogue on various forums and amongst various individual - that:
1) Mr. Mooney put himself out on the line to test one particular aspect of a controversial issue, and
2) the evaluation proceeded in a calm, academic fashion, in spite of the passion of folks on either side (or neither side) of the debate.
This speaks volumes for everyone. Everyone wins. And we've only begun.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited October 20, 2000).]
Thanks.
Let us not forget that - in spite of all the dialogue on various forums and amongst various individual - that:
1) Mr. Mooney put himself out on the line to test one particular aspect of a controversial issue, and
2) the evaluation proceeded in a calm, academic fashion, in spite of the passion of folks on either side (or neither side) of the debate.
This speaks volumes for everyone. Everyone wins. And we've only begun.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited October 20, 2000).]
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
RICH MOONEY RESULTS?
Ian
With regards to the marriage proposal,
1) that was in one of my subsequent lives. But who knows - if I'm not good in this one, I may come back as a toad or something.
2) After having received a massage from one of those newfangled chairs that they rent out for $30/hour, I once got down on my knees and proposed to it. It never responded. Go figure...
- Bill
With regards to the marriage proposal,
1) that was in one of my subsequent lives. But who knows - if I'm not good in this one, I may come back as a toad or something.
2) After having received a massage from one of those newfangled chairs that they rent out for $30/hour, I once got down on my knees and proposed to it. It never responded. Go figure...
- Bill
